4 ms·

SSN misuse will stop the moment companies are made responsible for all actions that result from using SSN as an authentication token.

dsr_ 7y ago
Designating the liability like this is why credit cards became useful, despite the ease of stealing them.
parsimo2010 7y ago
SSN misuse will stop once the USA has a secure national ID that is free and easy to get (don’t have to go to a DMV). Driver’s licenses aren’t a good enough solution. Less than 10% of Americans have a passport. But somehow the idea of a national ID has opponents everywhere. The right thinks it will create a surveillance state, the left thinks it will be used for voter suppression. So we are stuck with the misuse and abuse of SSNs because they weren’t designed as an ID number.
- cshimmin 7y ago
  More than 40% of Americans have a passport. The 10% figure hasn't been accurate since the early 90s: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- SilasX 7y ago
  >SSN misuse will stop once the USA has a secure national ID that is free and easy to get (don’t have to go to a DMV). What does that even mean? There will definitely be a bureaucracy with offices that administers it, which will be functionally a "DMV".
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    The distinction here would probably be with how state DMVs do things like 'only open every fifth Wednesday' (https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/feb/19/john-oliver/office-provides-id-voting-one-wisconsin-burg-open-/ https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/feb/19/...).
    - SilasX 7y ago
      Yes, I understand the concept of "that government office is a pain to deal with", but that concept is not conveyed by calling it "no DMV".
    - parsimo2010 7y ago
      Sorry, the distinction was supposed to be that state level DMVs can't securely verify someone's identity. Although they are often frustrating to deal with, it's the issue with fragmented administration that's the real problem with a DMV- each state decides the burden of proof before they give out an official "government issued ID" and most states are very lax- there is no way the DMV is Nevada is going to call up a county records office in Georgia to verify someone's birth information. A national system would be better at verifying identities.
  - parsimo2010 7y ago
    The worst misuse of SSNs are treating them like some form of ID. SSN's are often thought of as a primary key that uniquely identifies American citizens, and that someone knowing the match between a name and SSN is "proof" of a person being who they say they are. The problem is that none of this is true- SSNs are re-used, so they don't uniquely identify people, and they aren't secret (the weren't intended to be)- millions of people have access to SSN databases to the point where they can't be considered even remotely confidential anymore. And you don't have to be a citizen to get an SSN. To compound the problem, state Departments of Motor Vehicles have somehow become the arbiters of identity along with the SSN, when neither thing should have done so and very little verification takes place when a DMV issues an ID card. Any true national ID can't be administered at the state level- they might provide the manpower to hand out IDs, but the regulations and centralization should happen at the federal level. I can go to a DMV with a paper birth certificate that isn't mine (and might not be real) and SSN card that isn't mine, and get a driver's license or state ID if I can't pass the driving test. I can take the birth certificate, SSN card, and new fraudulent driver's license, and get a passport from the post office. That passport, with my picture, is considered "proof" that I am someone else entirely, and I got it without actually proving who I am, because at some point we decided that the SSN card you got as a baby is good enough proof, along with a driver's license (that usually hinges on having an SSN). The crazy part is that you don't even need to be a citizen to pull this off, just know where someone was born and their SSN, put a little effort into making a realistic looking birth certificate, and you can get ironclad proof of citizenship that lets you stay in the USA forever, vote in elections, travel abroad and get assistance from the American embassies, and enjoy all the benefits of being a citizen.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  How about a hash from a licensed professional of recorded birth time and a sun, moon and rising sign A lot of people would feel respected and it would be the most benign religious integration into our culture, aside from the names of the days of the week
- swiley 7y ago
  I'm still not convinced a national ID would be useful or even correct. The only three things I know of that SSNs are really used for (which are currently accepted uses and not DBAs being lazy) are tax ID numbers (which are more or less their intended use), Social Security itself, and the "credit reporting agencies." which are horribly irresponsible. The way they currently use them was originally illegal.
- mindslight 7y ago
  No thanks. The biggest "SSN misuse" is by commercial surveillance bureaus that use the number as a hook to crosslink and store detailed permanent records on each of us without any sort of consent or accountability. Strengthening the technical foundation of personal identifiers only makes sense after such abuse has been stopped. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20566396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20566396

dsr_ 7y ago

Designating the liability like this is why credit cards became useful, despite the ease of stealing them.

parsimo2010 7y ago

SSN misuse will stop once the USA has a secure national ID that is free and easy to get (don’t have to go to a DMV). Driver’s licenses aren’t a good enough solution. Less than 10% of Americans have a passport. But somehow the idea of a national ID has opponents everywhere. The right thinks it will create a surveillance state, the left thinks it will be used for voter suppression. So we are stuck with the misuse and abuse of SSNs because they weren’t designed as an ID number.

cshimmin 7y ago
More than 40% of Americans have a passport. The 10% figure hasn't been accurate since the early 90s: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-sh...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
SilasX 7y ago
>SSN misuse will stop once the USA has a secure national ID that is free and easy to get (don’t have to go to a DMV). What does that even mean? There will definitely be a bureaucracy with offices that administers it, which will be functionally a "DMV".
- crooked-v 7y ago
  The distinction here would probably be with how state DMVs do things like 'only open every fifth Wednesday' (https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/feb/19/john-oliver/office-provides-id-voting-one-wisconsin-burg-open-/ https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/feb/19/...).
  - SilasX 7y ago
    Yes, I understand the concept of "that government office is a pain to deal with", but that concept is not conveyed by calling it "no DMV".
  - parsimo2010 7y ago
    Sorry, the distinction was supposed to be that state level DMVs can't securely verify someone's identity. Although they are often frustrating to deal with, it's the issue with fragmented administration that's the real problem with a DMV- each state decides the burden of proof before they give out an official "government issued ID" and most states are very lax- there is no way the DMV is Nevada is going to call up a county records office in Georgia to verify someone's birth information. A national system would be better at verifying identities.
- parsimo2010 7y ago
  The worst misuse of SSNs are treating them like some form of ID. SSN's are often thought of as a primary key that uniquely identifies American citizens, and that someone knowing the match between a name and SSN is "proof" of a person being who they say they are. The problem is that none of this is true- SSNs are re-used, so they don't uniquely identify people, and they aren't secret (the weren't intended to be)- millions of people have access to SSN databases to the point where they can't be considered even remotely confidential anymore. And you don't have to be a citizen to get an SSN. To compound the problem, state Departments of Motor Vehicles have somehow become the arbiters of identity along with the SSN, when neither thing should have done so and very little verification takes place when a DMV issues an ID card. Any true national ID can't be administered at the state level- they might provide the manpower to hand out IDs, but the regulations and centralization should happen at the federal level. I can go to a DMV with a paper birth certificate that isn't mine (and might not be real) and SSN card that isn't mine, and get a driver's license or state ID if I can't pass the driving test. I can take the birth certificate, SSN card, and new fraudulent driver's license, and get a passport from the post office. That passport, with my picture, is considered "proof" that I am someone else entirely, and I got it without actually proving who I am, because at some point we decided that the SSN card you got as a baby is good enough proof, along with a driver's license (that usually hinges on having an SSN). The crazy part is that you don't even need to be a citizen to pull this off, just know where someone was born and their SSN, put a little effort into making a realistic looking birth certificate, and you can get ironclad proof of citizenship that lets you stay in the USA forever, vote in elections, travel abroad and get assistance from the American embassies, and enjoy all the benefits of being a citizen.
rolltiide 7y ago
How about a hash from a licensed professional of recorded birth time and a sun, moon and rising sign A lot of people would feel respected and it would be the most benign religious integration into our culture, aside from the names of the days of the week
swiley 7y ago
I'm still not convinced a national ID would be useful or even correct. The only three things I know of that SSNs are really used for (which are currently accepted uses and not DBAs being lazy) are tax ID numbers (which are more or less their intended use), Social Security itself, and the "credit reporting agencies." which are horribly irresponsible. The way they currently use them was originally illegal.
mindslight 7y ago
No thanks. The biggest "SSN misuse" is by commercial surveillance bureaus that use the number as a hook to crosslink and store detailed permanent records on each of us without any sort of consent or accountability. Strengthening the technical foundation of personal identifiers only makes sense after such abuse has been stopped. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20566396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20566396