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FTA: > As opposed to social media or GPS tracking apps, Schaeffer said the Apple Watch fall-detection feature offers extra reassurance by not relying on a pers

FTA: > As opposed to social media or GPS tracking apps, Schaeffer said the Apple Watch fall-detection feature offers extra reassurance by not relying on a person to alert first responders. We're early enough in the adoption cycle that this is an undeniable benefit. Obviously, if nobody else is around, then it's life-saving. But I do worry about the long-term ethics. What if, when such watches become common, it becomes socially acceptable to just ignore people in life-threatening distress - "I don't need to call 911, their watch will have taken care of that." Just another nail in the societal coffin of distorting individualism as insularity. Not a reason to ban this technology (or any similar action). Just something to keep in the back of our heads as the adoption curve progresses.

daliusd 7y ago
I think this is nothing new to worry about. Bystander effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect) was relevant before Apple Watch.
- Jataman606 7y ago
  There was a study recently that basically debunked this theory. It was done by tracking real incidents through cameras in big cities in Europe. Long story short, the more people were there the more likely that someone offers help.
  - daliusd 7y ago
    If that's the case then isn't that good news?
  - feanaro 7y ago
    The study had some serious confounding issues which were not dealt with, though. For example, determining whether the bystanders were actually friends walking together with the target of the incident. Also, the bystander effect deals with the probability of any individual helping out. It's still possible that there are two forces at play here: the declining probability of any individual helping vs the increasing probability that someone in an ever-larger group will still help despite the individual effect. It might be the case that there is a critical value N of bystanders where the second effect overpowers the first one.
    - ptmvp 7y ago
      Just a layman's guess here, but I strongly doubt the bystander effect is strong enough to overcome the chances of a single person helping. Note that for the bystander effect to happen, all the people in the vicinity have to not intervene, while for it to be defeated, it takes a single individual to act. I doubt that as N increases the "network" effects are strong enough to overcome the chance that someone that will help, regardless of what the effect of "N-1" bystanders is, shows up.
      - feanaro 7y ago
        That would be my guess as well, at least for large N. It might still show interesting behaviour for smaller group sizes, for instance a group of 2 vs a group of 6, or when the probability of a single person helping is comparatively low to begin with (for instance, in a bad neighbourhood known for scams). The effect is informative regarding what to do when you need someone's help, though. Since the basis of the effect is the diffusion of responsibility, it helps to address a person directly when asking for help. Instead of asking whether anyone in the group can help with something, point to a particular person and ask them whether they can help. In this way, the refusal to help becomes explicit and people will be less likely do that. This is something I've observed from personal experience too.
  - kokx 7y ago
    In Europe, in a lot of countries there are programs such as the dutch BHV (BedrijfsHulpVerlener) program. Basically: companies need to have some people on staff with a basic first aid and fire evacuation training. I have done this, and it has helped in mitigating the bystander effect. It means that there is a relatively large amount of people in the population that know what to do when accidents occur. IMO this makes bystanders who have done such programs to help, since they know how valuable time is in a lot of these situations. Since I have done this training, whenever there is an accident on the streets and I am nearby, I will go help because I know what to do. And am therefor more likely to take initiative. So I wouldn't immediately say this discount would be correct. It could also mean that some mitigation against the bystander effect is working.
  - invalidusernam3 7y ago
    A lot of countries in Europe have Duty to rescue laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue): "circumstance in which a party can be held liable for failing to come to the rescue of another party who could face potential injury or death without being rescued"
    - HenryBemis 7y ago
      This, in combination with Good Samaritan Laws (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law) make it more likely that people in Europe will help out. I remember stories in China that people would avoid helping someone in lieu of being blamed for any further injury caused, they would be taking the blame.
    - Myrmornis 7y ago
      In contrast, in 2007 a man in Baghdad noticed an injured man by the side of the road, and stopped his car (containing 2 children) to help. He was immediately killed by the US military for doing so; they were watching from an Apache helicopter and shot him dead for stopping to help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri...
- y4mi 7y ago
  You might want to actually read that article daliusd. The bystander effect is just hypothesis and hasn't actually been observed to my knowledge. In the mentioned Kitty Genovese incident the numbers were inflated and while it isn't mentioned here, there actually were police reports while it was happening. They were just ignored until it was too late.
  - sbmthakur 7y ago
    I think local laws also play some part in this. There have been cases where people who help the victims have been accused of having harmed the victims. If not that, they're hassled by Police and other investigators during the course of the investigation. This is the reason why Good Samaritan law is being brought into effect across the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
    - komali2 7y ago
      More culture than law - my personal experience is that sub cultures within rigid legal systems that do not make it a good idea to lend aid (China for example) will do so regardless because of their subculture value system.
  - daliusd 7y ago
    In that case Apple watch shouldn't introduce anything new if bystander effect is just hypothesis.
- rutierut 7y ago
  The bystander effect is probably complete nonsense, there have been some recent studies that tried to replicate its findings and they found the opposite to be true.
  - williamchangnpu 7y ago
    Here in China, the bystander effect is kind of have its effects, I mean sometime in bigcities, if an old man fell off unconsciously, lots of people will pass by, maybe they feel unconfortable with that, but there are some case which the old people accuse the one who help them knocking them down, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shoulan_v._Peng_Yu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shoulan_v._Peng_Yu , And CCTV has broadcast the case, and it cause a big discuss on the internet, and now lots of people, would not be a Good Samaritan when similar things happen, although have a guilty conscience.
    - williamchangnpu 7y ago
      Saying that, I have seen people help others who fell down on a subway car, so it varies among defferent person.
ape4 7y ago
Does the watch display "911 called" or similar.
- OrgNet 7y ago
  It probably also gives you ample time to cancel the call.
benj111 7y ago
"We're early enough in the adoption cycle that this is an undeniable benefit" Until someone gets fined for an ambulance being called on their behalf, because they dropped their watch on the floor...
- neuronic 7y ago
  There are countries where people don't get fined for calling an ambulance due to personal financial damage. Even though misuse happens, it's minuscule compared to the benefit of general healthcare and not having to pay thousands of dollars for getting critical help.
  - semerda 7y ago
    Yap, Australia, Canada, and most EU countries.
  - benj111 7y ago
    I'm from the UK, so no I wouldn't have to pay (I don't think?) As far as I understand free ambulances are fairly unusual though. I can see either insurance companies not wanting to pay out in these situations, or govts charging in these situations.
- simonh 7y ago
  The watch would know it wasn't attached to a person.
  - ryacko 7y ago
    https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1167488964040777729 https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/116748896404077772... No it would not.
    - simonh 7y ago
      That really doesn't look much like any of the Apple watches I've seen. What model is it?
neuronic 7y ago
People are already refusing to call 911 or the equivalent in other countries and the reasons are manifold. For one, liability is a concern, a socially trained lack of empathy (e.g. Han Chinese), or the bystander effect.
- haoshuji 7y ago
  Do you have statistical results to support your bias to say Han Chinese are lack of empathy, or just based on some news which is a small ratio by comparing with the large population?
  - treden 7y ago
    I was also curious, maybe because the statement was a surprise. There are certainly differences between cultures, so how would you even decide which empathy distribution was the best one? I did find a longer discussion of the topic, so it seems the idea wasn't pulled out of thin air, but it still isn't a measurement: https://chublicopinion.com/2015/12/06/the-unbearable-coldness-of-being-chinese/amp/ https://chublicopinion.com/2015/12/06/the-unbearable-coldnes...
- dang 7y ago
  Please keep racial flamebait off this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
inimino 7y ago
It's good to look out for adverse side effects, but let's not jump to full-on post-100% deployment dystopias when we are still talking about a product < 1% of global population can even afford.
vectorEQ 7y ago
i'm not against gps tracking or other people tracking, i'm only against irresponsible usage of this data. that people will be tracked everywhere and these kind of features being implemented in such a connected world is unavoidable, and in reality besides the darker downsides it might have of irresponsible usage of the data, it has good potential to do very nice things for people. the issue is not with the technology, but with people, as always. with the adoption of ipv6, iot and gps_in_everything etc. it's not a question about if the technology can be used for bad things, it's a question about if it will. people who only believe int he darker side of this technology can easily avoid it by not participating. they should let people who willingly participate do so at their own 'peril' if that's their opinion. privacy advocates are the new religion trying to push their views on everyone even though it's just a matter of opinion. some people love to be tracked everywhere for the benefits it can give them, other people hate it for the downsides it might have. its all a matter of opinion for users, and a question of integrity for its masters.
8659ad2c-7722-4 7y ago
> What if, when such watches become common, it becomes socially acceptable to just ignore people in life-threatening distress I know it's just one incident in history, but something else to keep in the back of our heads is that in 2007 a man in Baghdad noticed an injured man by the side of the road, and stopped his car to help. He was killed by the US military for doing so; they were watching from an Apache helicopter and shot him dead for stopping to help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri...

daliusd 7y ago

I think this is nothing new to worry about. Bystander effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect) was relevant before Apple Watch.

Jataman606 7y ago
There was a study recently that basically debunked this theory. It was done by tracking real incidents through cameras in big cities in Europe. Long story short, the more people were there the more likely that someone offers help.
- daliusd 7y ago
  If that's the case then isn't that good news?
- feanaro 7y ago
  The study had some serious confounding issues which were not dealt with, though. For example, determining whether the bystanders were actually friends walking together with the target of the incident. Also, the bystander effect deals with the probability of any individual helping out. It's still possible that there are two forces at play here: the declining probability of any individual helping vs the increasing probability that someone in an ever-larger group will still help despite the individual effect. It might be the case that there is a critical value N of bystanders where the second effect overpowers the first one.
  - ptmvp 7y ago
    Just a layman's guess here, but I strongly doubt the bystander effect is strong enough to overcome the chances of a single person helping. Note that for the bystander effect to happen, all the people in the vicinity have to not intervene, while for it to be defeated, it takes a single individual to act. I doubt that as N increases the "network" effects are strong enough to overcome the chance that someone that will help, regardless of what the effect of "N-1" bystanders is, shows up.
    - feanaro 7y ago
      That would be my guess as well, at least for large N. It might still show interesting behaviour for smaller group sizes, for instance a group of 2 vs a group of 6, or when the probability of a single person helping is comparatively low to begin with (for instance, in a bad neighbourhood known for scams). The effect is informative regarding what to do when you need someone's help, though. Since the basis of the effect is the diffusion of responsibility, it helps to address a person directly when asking for help. Instead of asking whether anyone in the group can help with something, point to a particular person and ask them whether they can help. In this way, the refusal to help becomes explicit and people will be less likely do that. This is something I've observed from personal experience too.
- kokx 7y ago
  In Europe, in a lot of countries there are programs such as the dutch BHV (BedrijfsHulpVerlener) program. Basically: companies need to have some people on staff with a basic first aid and fire evacuation training. I have done this, and it has helped in mitigating the bystander effect. It means that there is a relatively large amount of people in the population that know what to do when accidents occur. IMO this makes bystanders who have done such programs to help, since they know how valuable time is in a lot of these situations. Since I have done this training, whenever there is an accident on the streets and I am nearby, I will go help because I know what to do. And am therefor more likely to take initiative. So I wouldn't immediately say this discount would be correct. It could also mean that some mitigation against the bystander effect is working.
- invalidusernam3 7y ago
  A lot of countries in Europe have Duty to rescue laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue): "circumstance in which a party can be held liable for failing to come to the rescue of another party who could face potential injury or death without being rescued"
  - HenryBemis 7y ago
    This, in combination with Good Samaritan Laws (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law) make it more likely that people in Europe will help out. I remember stories in China that people would avoid helping someone in lieu of being blamed for any further injury caused, they would be taking the blame.
  - Myrmornis 7y ago
    In contrast, in 2007 a man in Baghdad noticed an injured man by the side of the road, and stopped his car (containing 2 children) to help. He was immediately killed by the US military for doing so; they were watching from an Apache helicopter and shot him dead for stopping to help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri...
y4mi 7y ago
You might want to actually read that article daliusd. The bystander effect is just hypothesis and hasn't actually been observed to my knowledge. In the mentioned Kitty Genovese incident the numbers were inflated and while it isn't mentioned here, there actually were police reports while it was happening. They were just ignored until it was too late.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  I think local laws also play some part in this. There have been cases where people who help the victims have been accused of having harmed the victims. If not that, they're hassled by Police and other investigators during the course of the investigation. This is the reason why Good Samaritan law is being brought into effect across the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
  - komali2 7y ago
    More culture than law - my personal experience is that sub cultures within rigid legal systems that do not make it a good idea to lend aid (China for example) will do so regardless because of their subculture value system.
- daliusd 7y ago
  In that case Apple watch shouldn't introduce anything new if bystander effect is just hypothesis.
rutierut 7y ago
The bystander effect is probably complete nonsense, there have been some recent studies that tried to replicate its findings and they found the opposite to be true.
- williamchangnpu 7y ago
  Here in China, the bystander effect is kind of have its effects, I mean sometime in bigcities, if an old man fell off unconsciously, lots of people will pass by, maybe they feel unconfortable with that, but there are some case which the old people accuse the one who help them knocking them down, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shoulan_v._Peng_Yu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shoulan_v._Peng_Yu , And CCTV has broadcast the case, and it cause a big discuss on the internet, and now lots of people, would not be a Good Samaritan when similar things happen, although have a guilty conscience.
  - williamchangnpu 7y ago
    Saying that, I have seen people help others who fell down on a subway car, so it varies among defferent person.

ape4 7y ago

Does the watch display "911 called" or similar.

OrgNet 7y ago
It probably also gives you ample time to cancel the call.

benj111 7y ago

"We're early enough in the adoption cycle that this is an undeniable benefit" Until someone gets fined for an ambulance being called on their behalf, because they dropped their watch on the floor...

neuronic 7y ago
There are countries where people don't get fined for calling an ambulance due to personal financial damage. Even though misuse happens, it's minuscule compared to the benefit of general healthcare and not having to pay thousands of dollars for getting critical help.
- semerda 7y ago
  Yap, Australia, Canada, and most EU countries.
- benj111 7y ago
  I'm from the UK, so no I wouldn't have to pay (I don't think?) As far as I understand free ambulances are fairly unusual though. I can see either insurance companies not wanting to pay out in these situations, or govts charging in these situations.
simonh 7y ago
The watch would know it wasn't attached to a person.
- ryacko 7y ago
  https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1167488964040777729 https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/116748896404077772... No it would not.
  - simonh 7y ago
    That really doesn't look much like any of the Apple watches I've seen. What model is it?

neuronic 7y ago

People are already refusing to call 911 or the equivalent in other countries and the reasons are manifold. For one, liability is a concern, a socially trained lack of empathy (e.g. Han Chinese), or the bystander effect.

haoshuji 7y ago
Do you have statistical results to support your bias to say Han Chinese are lack of empathy, or just based on some news which is a small ratio by comparing with the large population?
- treden 7y ago
  I was also curious, maybe because the statement was a surprise. There are certainly differences between cultures, so how would you even decide which empathy distribution was the best one? I did find a longer discussion of the topic, so it seems the idea wasn't pulled out of thin air, but it still isn't a measurement: https://chublicopinion.com/2015/12/06/the-unbearable-coldness-of-being-chinese/amp/ https://chublicopinion.com/2015/12/06/the-unbearable-coldnes...
dang 7y ago
Please keep racial flamebait off this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

inimino 7y ago

It's good to look out for adverse side effects, but let's not jump to full-on post-100% deployment dystopias when we are still talking about a product < 1% of global population can even afford.

vectorEQ 7y ago

i'm not against gps tracking or other people tracking, i'm only against irresponsible usage of this data. that people will be tracked everywhere and these kind of features being implemented in such a connected world is unavoidable, and in reality besides the darker downsides it might have of irresponsible usage of the data, it has good potential to do very nice things for people. the issue is not with the technology, but with people, as always. with the adoption of ipv6, iot and gps_in_everything etc. it's not a question about if the technology can be used for bad things, it's a question about if it will. people who only believe int he darker side of this technology can easily avoid it by not participating. they should let people who willingly participate do so at their own 'peril' if that's their opinion. privacy advocates are the new religion trying to push their views on everyone even though it's just a matter of opinion. some people love to be tracked everywhere for the benefits it can give them, other people hate it for the downsides it might have. its all a matter of opinion for users, and a question of integrity for its masters.

8659ad2c-7722-4 7y ago

> What if, when such watches become common, it becomes socially acceptable to just ignore people in life-threatening distress I know it's just one incident in history, but something else to keep in the back of our heads is that in 2007 a man in Baghdad noticed an injured man by the side of the road, and stopped his car to help. He was killed by the US military for doing so; they were watching from an Apache helicopter and shot him dead for stopping to help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri...