3 ms·

This sort of thing is why engineers are paid way too much, and way too little, and why so many see the profession as a young man's game. You're just not the ma

This sort of thing is why engineers are paid way too much, and way too little, and why so many see the profession as a young man's game. You're just not the master of your own fate. Sure, the computers are predictable (for some value of "predictable"...) but management is not---even if they try to be. I've been mentally moving away from being paid to write software. I can see writing it for my own use, even professional use---I just don't want to be on the hook for ever-changing requirements, decided by people who are often kind, but not, in the end, competent. The best managers understand this and will give you leeway, but this is not a sustainable, repeatable thing. It lives and dies on one relationship. I wonder sometimes: what if we just all stopped writing software one day, and started just using it? Writing software is a bad deal in a lot of ways---hard, socially isolating, etc---while using it is amazing---the computer does the work for you! Don't get me wrong, I spent an hour at work today presenting on Lisp macros and loved every minute of it. But a dev career, for many, means a capped income and a razor's edge of apparent competence.

kqr 7y ago
> I wonder sometimes: what if we just all stopped writing software one day, and started just using it? Writing software is a bad deal in a lot of ways---hard, socially isolating, etc---while using it is amazing---the computer does the work for you! What's the difference, though? It's insane how much of my work the computer does when I write code these days.
- dropit_sphere 7y ago
  The difference is it never actually gives you more time. The expectations increase in lockstep with the efficiency.
hvidgaard 7y ago
> he best managers understand this and will give you leeway, but this is not a sustainable, repeatable thing. It lives and dies on one relationship. This is one of the reasons you often hears about an entire team moving to a new company. They have a dynamic that works, and they do not want to risk it.
mettamage 7y ago
What jobs don't have drawbacks though? I have been thinking a bit about this: 1. Doctor: In many cases, throw away your life and work 60+ hours and also you need to specialize and study long and hard. 2. Laywer: I don't know enough about the profession. The job doesn't transfer well to other countries. 3. Consultant: 60+ hour days are the norm, interviews tend to be based on quick thinking in the high school arena. To pass the interview, you need to have excellent and super quick high school level knowledge of: math, logic, social and political skills. This sound denigrating but I found it tough to do this quick. 4. Investment banker: 100 hours 5. Construction worker: your body will thank you later (/sarcasm). Programmers have a certain set of advantages and disadvantages (I agree with your disadvantages), but how is it worse than other white collar jobs?
- dropit_sphere 7y ago
  You're not wrong. The labor market is relatively efficient. Go on a reasoning chain with me: - what solves the problem nicely is to sell software. Selling good software can be one of the easiest and most lucrative jobs in the world. In practice no particular employee gets that---the company pays enough to motivate, but takes the rest. The solution, then, is to be the software company. So...start a startup? "What a novel idea Dropit, on HN of all places!" I have actually "done this" (or thought I was doing it) multiple times (failed every time), but looking back I can see a lot of trivial mistakes I made. But at least I can find some---with many code-for-hire fiascos, the mistake was taking the job in the first place. So my conclusion: accept the job you have, for now, while saving money and trying to have a good, normal life, and put some effort into seeking out new opportunities. FU money is a thing, as is FU market position.
  - mettamage 7y ago
    A strategy I thought out today was as follows (note: I'm based in The Netherlands): 1. Get a job for 32 hours per week 2. Work 10 hours on week days and 8 hours on one weekend day (take the other weekend day of), so that you clock 58 hours per week. 3. Don't take up your vacation, safe it. 4. Take the other 6 months off. 5. Oh, and pay less taxes. You're handing in 20% gross, but net you're only handing in 15%. I think a schedule like this works for people like me, because I like to work hard and earn my freedom and then relax and doodle around for quite a while (i.e. 2 to 4 months) and then do a small side project and then work hard again. Since I'm at the beginning of my career, it sounds like an interesting experiment. Not for my situation, but for others: geo-arbitrage becomes interesting as you can literally fly to Thailand for 6 months and come back (a cheap retour ticket is found for around 400 euro's).
PeterisP 7y ago
"this is not a sustainable, repeatable thing. It lives and dies on one relationship." That can be quite sustainable; that one (or few) relationships can be long-lasting. If good managers leave and are replaced by bad managers, often quite soon team members will leave to join that manager in their new company - it's a well known fact that the direct manager matters more for job satisfaction than the particular company. I know people who over the years have worked at 3-4 companies for the same boss (not continuously), and if I was unhappy at my current position, I remember a few previous managers whom I'd call to ask 'are you hiring?' and in the tech field the answer pretty much always is positive.
cloverich 7y ago
You might consider whether you are ready to go into management. We know the trope of the engineer forced into management, who did not want that job. But I think the opposite is just as common -- great engineers, who would also be great managers, that never (want to) make the transition. Understandable -- a good management day seems less enjoyable than a good code writing day. But I bet most companies, careers, and products would be the better for it.
- nautilus12 7y ago
  I have wanted to make that transition for years now, but the opportunity never presented itself, I can't even find a way to force my way into the opportunity. It seems like all management in every company Ive worked at were coworkers of the founders at a previous company.

kqr 7y ago

> I wonder sometimes: what if we just all stopped writing software one day, and started just using it? Writing software is a bad deal in a lot of ways---hard, socially isolating, etc---while using it is amazing---the computer does the work for you! What's the difference, though? It's insane how much of my work the computer does when I write code these days.

dropit_sphere 7y ago
The difference is it never actually gives you more time. The expectations increase in lockstep with the efficiency.

hvidgaard 7y ago

> he best managers understand this and will give you leeway, but this is not a sustainable, repeatable thing. It lives and dies on one relationship. This is one of the reasons you often hears about an entire team moving to a new company. They have a dynamic that works, and they do not want to risk it.

mettamage 7y ago

What jobs don't have drawbacks though? I have been thinking a bit about this: 1. Doctor: In many cases, throw away your life and work 60+ hours and also you need to specialize and study long and hard. 2. Laywer: I don't know enough about the profession. The job doesn't transfer well to other countries. 3. Consultant: 60+ hour days are the norm, interviews tend to be based on quick thinking in the high school arena. To pass the interview, you need to have excellent and super quick high school level knowledge of: math, logic, social and political skills. This sound denigrating but I found it tough to do this quick. 4. Investment banker: 100 hours 5. Construction worker: your body will thank you later (/sarcasm). Programmers have a certain set of advantages and disadvantages (I agree with your disadvantages), but how is it worse than other white collar jobs?

dropit_sphere 7y ago
You're not wrong. The labor market is relatively efficient. Go on a reasoning chain with me: - what solves the problem nicely is to sell software. Selling good software can be one of the easiest and most lucrative jobs in the world. In practice no particular employee gets that---the company pays enough to motivate, but takes the rest. The solution, then, is to be the software company. So...start a startup? "What a novel idea Dropit, on HN of all places!" I have actually "done this" (or thought I was doing it) multiple times (failed every time), but looking back I can see a lot of trivial mistakes I made. But at least I can find some---with many code-for-hire fiascos, the mistake was taking the job in the first place. So my conclusion: accept the job you have, for now, while saving money and trying to have a good, normal life, and put some effort into seeking out new opportunities. FU money is a thing, as is FU market position.
- mettamage 7y ago
  A strategy I thought out today was as follows (note: I'm based in The Netherlands): 1. Get a job for 32 hours per week 2. Work 10 hours on week days and 8 hours on one weekend day (take the other weekend day of), so that you clock 58 hours per week. 3. Don't take up your vacation, safe it. 4. Take the other 6 months off. 5. Oh, and pay less taxes. You're handing in 20% gross, but net you're only handing in 15%. I think a schedule like this works for people like me, because I like to work hard and earn my freedom and then relax and doodle around for quite a while (i.e. 2 to 4 months) and then do a small side project and then work hard again. Since I'm at the beginning of my career, it sounds like an interesting experiment. Not for my situation, but for others: geo-arbitrage becomes interesting as you can literally fly to Thailand for 6 months and come back (a cheap retour ticket is found for around 400 euro's).

PeterisP 7y ago

"this is not a sustainable, repeatable thing. It lives and dies on one relationship." That can be quite sustainable; that one (or few) relationships can be long-lasting. If good managers leave and are replaced by bad managers, often quite soon team members will leave to join that manager in their new company - it's a well known fact that the direct manager matters more for job satisfaction than the particular company. I know people who over the years have worked at 3-4 companies for the same boss (not continuously), and if I was unhappy at my current position, I remember a few previous managers whom I'd call to ask 'are you hiring?' and in the tech field the answer pretty much always is positive.

cloverich 7y ago

You might consider whether you are ready to go into management. We know the trope of the engineer forced into management, who did not want that job. But I think the opposite is just as common -- great engineers, who would also be great managers, that never (want to) make the transition. Understandable -- a good management day seems less enjoyable than a good code writing day. But I bet most companies, careers, and products would be the better for it.

nautilus12 7y ago
I have wanted to make that transition for years now, but the opportunity never presented itself, I can't even find a way to force my way into the opportunity. It seems like all management in every company Ive worked at were coworkers of the founders at a previous company.