7 ms·

>A whole lot of this BS is rooted in the idea that a woman's sexuality is a prize to be won by an "eligible" male -- ie a man who earns enough to take care of h

by dgzl 7y ago

>A whole lot of this BS is rooted in the idea that a woman's sexuality is a prize to be won by an "eligible" male -- ie a man who earns enough to take care of her. There is a subtext of ownership there. Both sides perpetuate this, but I see this coming from women much more than men.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
Perhaps that's because most women need a man's income to not be dirt poor. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to ever have spent time on the leader board. It has resulted in nearly zero professional connections. When I complain about that, I get blown off and told that's not something I should expect from HN, nevermind that it works that way for plenty of men. I was homeless for nearly six years. I continue to struggle to make ends meet. I'm currently broke. This is an ongoing issue for me. And it is shocking and appalling to me that I still get told after all this time that my gender isn't the issue and I'm imagining things. I guess just to add insult to injury while I literally starve. Again.
- dgzl 7y ago
  ... so you say that "A whole lot of this BS is rooted in the idea that a woman's sexuality is a prize to be won by ... a man who earns enough to take care of her," and you'll entertain the idea that it comes from women more than men, but you want to justify it by saying "women need a man's income to not be dirt poor." Do you realize how poor of an argument that is? Even reading "most women need men's income" as a legitimate statement just makes me cringe. I really hope you don't carry this attitude and entitlement to your job perspectives, because I wouldn't want to imagine that you're missing such a glaring red flag.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    I don't read that as an attempt to justify at all, it's expressed as a statement of a sad reality for a lot of people, with lamentation.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I was homeless for nearly six years. During that time, random men who realized I was homeless would either offer me cash for sex or ask if I needed a place to live. Meanwhile, attempts to figure out how to earn an income were met very dismissively. Attempts to figure out how to network on HN got me essentially nowhere. I have written pieces that did well on the front page of HN. My Patreon remains underfunded and I get damn little in the way of paid work. Those experiences inform my opinion. My previous handle was Mz. It was briefly on the leader board, then I changed handles. Between the two accounts, I have more than 45k karma. If it were under one handle, I would be respectably high on the leader board. You can go ahead and act like I'm just some bitch with an attitude problem, but I appear to be the only woman to have ever made the leader board here. Surveys suggest HN was as much as 98% male at one time. There do not appear to be scads of other women successfully fitting in and advancing their careers here the way men routinely do. This forum is run by the most powerful business incubator on the planet. It is essentially the global old boys club of our era. Being able to adequately fit in to make the leader board still fails to make it a networking opportunity for me. So if I'm some bitch with an attitude problem, where are all the "good" women doing it right? All the evidence seems to be I fit in here better than most women and it still is inadequate to help me establish a middle class income.
    - dgzl 7y ago
      I can't really help you with networking, and I'm not the kind of person who thinks things like being high-ranked entitles you to something other than bragging rights. I certainly don't know enough about the blogging scene to help you there. I don't see the justification in calling HN a Boy's Club either, as there are zero barriers to participate other than a computer. That term is usually used when people exclude women from the group because they are women, but nobody here knows or cares what sex you are. I'm sorry for your situations, I really am. My mother and I used to be homeless and now she's entirely dependant on the government for survival. It's heartbreaking because as I grew older, I realized she had essentially done it to herself. Yes, I think your attitude is a direct contributor to some of your problems. No, I don't think it's easy to have a good attitude when you're in the gutter. I wish I had more advice, but my options about these things are pretty comprehensive and this isn't the best place to dig into it.
- asveikau 7y ago
  > I continue to struggle to make ends meet. I'm currently broke. I'm sorry to hear that. > It has resulted in nearly zero professional connections I looked at your website a bit, but I am curious. Is it too much to ask what kind of professional connections do you seek? Maybe somebody around this thread has something for you, by sheer coincidence.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I blog. (For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064999) Patreon supporters or tips would be nice. I do resume work. Five pages per week of that would keep me in groceries. I also do other things, not pertinent to the HN crowd. There are other goals I'm working on. But those are the most immediately actionable.
    - asveikau 7y ago
      Hope you don't taken offence, but since you mentioned groceries I am curious what you think of something like a food bank? About a month ago I started volunteering passing out groceries at one of those here in San Francisco. I don't know what the process is like for recipients, but I see the same faces come in each week, regular looking people, sometimes with family or children in tow, and they seem pretty well provided for with some good ingredients for the week.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I've done that in the past. I have a serious medical condition with significant dietary restrictions, a dead fridge and limited cooking ability. When I did that recently, a lot of what I got was cold food which spoiled overnight because my fridge is dead and I don't have the funds to replace it right now. It's just vastly better for me if I earn the money and it's not a huge amount that I need, so it's frustrating as hell that I can't come up with it consistently.
        complexvisitor 7y ago
- lisper 7y ago
  I've been on the LB for months and it hasn't resulted in any contacts at all. In fact, AFAICT being on the HNLB is a complete no-op. And I'm a white male.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    It's not uncommon for someone like you to make a statement like this when I make such comments. I imagine I would be downvoted to hell and possibly crabbed at by the mods if I began researching members of the leader board to prove my case or even just began ticking off what I happen to know off the top of my head. I'm not at my best at the moment. Suffice it to say this kind of statement is part of the problem in my eyes, though it often seems motivated by good intentions. There are men who've used their popularity here to make contacts, promote their work, etc. The fact that you aren't one of them isn't actually evidence that it can't be done.
    - ars 7y ago
      You have cause and effect backwards. Those people you are thinking of are well known for what they do outside of HN, and then they attract a following on HN.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I have reason to believe that is not universally true. Again, I'm not interested in naming names. I don't believe that goes good places.
        juststeve 7y ago
        why do you expect that the leader board means anything? they are just internet points, no?
    - lisper 7y ago
      > someone like you Do you listen to yourself? What exactly did you mean by "someone like you"? Do you not get that the whole problem is people thinking in terms of "people like you" (i.e. "women", "muslims", "blacks", "C++ fans", "privileged white males who have had life served up to them on a silver platter") instead of "you"? > this kind of statement is part of the problem And what exactly is "this kind of statement"? Because AFAICT all I did was tell you some facts from my own experience. > There are men who've used their popularity here to make contacts, promote their work, etc. I don't doubt that (though I can't help but wonder how you would know). But so what? Different people navigate life in different ways. Let's take a look at how you present yourself. The first sentence in your HN profile is: "Actions speak louder than words. Men who loudly protest the unjust treatment of women while actively perpetuating it should be judged by their deeds, not their hollow and hypocritical words." To me that does not say, "This is a person with whom you would want to do business", it says, "This is a person with a planet-sized chip on their shoulder." You should at least consider the possibility that this has as much of an effect on people's desire to interact with you professionally as your lack of a Y chromosome, because your HN profile is actually under your control.
- thrower123 7y ago
  The only thing lamer than internet points is bragging about how many you have. Honestly, being on the HN leaderboard is not a particularly healthy indicator in the grander scheme of things...
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    That's not the point. It's a proxy for "Women generally don't participate much here compared to men. I participate regularly and I'm accepted to some degree." But, of course, it doesn't matter how I say it. The point gets attacked and dismissed. Because no one here wants to admit sexism genuinely is a problem, especially not if it implicates them to any degree. Somehow, it's always everyone else who's guilty, not the people nitpicking and dismissing my comments.
- seventhtiger 7y ago
  Don't disrespect the agency of women. Do not victimize them when they do something wrong by blaming it on society. I don't see anything unique to your financial or professional situation that suggests it's due to your gender. Before being a woman you are a person. If you're in a situation that any man or woman could find themselves in then ask what is it about you as a person that you got you here. The more you blame your gender the less room you give yourself to develop.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  I'm very sorry that you go through hard times but when you take a look at the homelessness statistics you would understand men are having it in comparison statistically speaking much harder.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    It's really not that simple. https://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/2017/07/gender-and-homelessness.html https://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/2017/07/g...
    - flippinburgers 7y ago
      According to the article women, I guess, have it harder because: 1) Family tends to want to take care of women. Women get custody more often! 2) Women often are able to find a man willing to take care of them. 3) Peeing in bushes is hard. With other rich quotes like "women seem this and men seem that". At most it simply proves that women have it easier.
- easymodex 7y ago
  I don't think "Popular commenter on HN" is a position in many companies. You're supposed to check the "Who's hiring?" threads and see where your skills would match the job description and contact them. That's about it on HN, this isn't really a job seeking board.

by dgzl 7y ago

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Perhaps that's because most women need a man's income to not be dirt poor. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to ever have spent time on the leader board. It has resulted in nearly zero professional connections. When I complain about that, I get blown off and told that's not something I should expect from HN, nevermind that it works that way for plenty of men. I was homeless for nearly six years. I continue to struggle to make ends meet. I'm currently broke. This is an ongoing issue for me. And it is shocking and appalling to me that I still get told after all this time that my gender isn't the issue and I'm imagining things. I guess just to add insult to injury while I literally starve. Again.

dgzl 7y ago
... so you say that "A whole lot of this BS is rooted in the idea that a woman's sexuality is a prize to be won by ... a man who earns enough to take care of her," and you'll entertain the idea that it comes from women more than men, but you want to justify it by saying "women need a man's income to not be dirt poor." Do you realize how poor of an argument that is? Even reading "most women need men's income" as a legitimate statement just makes me cringe. I really hope you don't carry this attitude and entitlement to your job perspectives, because I wouldn't want to imagine that you're missing such a glaring red flag.
- asveikau 7y ago
  I don't read that as an attempt to justify at all, it's expressed as a statement of a sad reality for a lot of people, with lamentation.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  I was homeless for nearly six years. During that time, random men who realized I was homeless would either offer me cash for sex or ask if I needed a place to live. Meanwhile, attempts to figure out how to earn an income were met very dismissively. Attempts to figure out how to network on HN got me essentially nowhere. I have written pieces that did well on the front page of HN. My Patreon remains underfunded and I get damn little in the way of paid work. Those experiences inform my opinion. My previous handle was Mz. It was briefly on the leader board, then I changed handles. Between the two accounts, I have more than 45k karma. If it were under one handle, I would be respectably high on the leader board. You can go ahead and act like I'm just some bitch with an attitude problem, but I appear to be the only woman to have ever made the leader board here. Surveys suggest HN was as much as 98% male at one time. There do not appear to be scads of other women successfully fitting in and advancing their careers here the way men routinely do. This forum is run by the most powerful business incubator on the planet. It is essentially the global old boys club of our era. Being able to adequately fit in to make the leader board still fails to make it a networking opportunity for me. So if I'm some bitch with an attitude problem, where are all the "good" women doing it right? All the evidence seems to be I fit in here better than most women and it still is inadequate to help me establish a middle class income.
  - dgzl 7y ago
    I can't really help you with networking, and I'm not the kind of person who thinks things like being high-ranked entitles you to something other than bragging rights. I certainly don't know enough about the blogging scene to help you there. I don't see the justification in calling HN a Boy's Club either, as there are zero barriers to participate other than a computer. That term is usually used when people exclude women from the group because they are women, but nobody here knows or cares what sex you are. I'm sorry for your situations, I really am. My mother and I used to be homeless and now she's entirely dependant on the government for survival. It's heartbreaking because as I grew older, I realized she had essentially done it to herself. Yes, I think your attitude is a direct contributor to some of your problems. No, I don't think it's easy to have a good attitude when you're in the gutter. I wish I had more advice, but my options about these things are pretty comprehensive and this isn't the best place to dig into it.
asveikau 7y ago
> I continue to struggle to make ends meet. I'm currently broke. I'm sorry to hear that. > It has resulted in nearly zero professional connections I looked at your website a bit, but I am curious. Is it too much to ask what kind of professional connections do you seek? Maybe somebody around this thread has something for you, by sheer coincidence.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  I blog. (For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064999) Patreon supporters or tips would be nice. I do resume work. Five pages per week of that would keep me in groceries. I also do other things, not pertinent to the HN crowd. There are other goals I'm working on. But those are the most immediately actionable.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    Hope you don't taken offence, but since you mentioned groceries I am curious what you think of something like a food bank? About a month ago I started volunteering passing out groceries at one of those here in San Francisco. I don't know what the process is like for recipients, but I see the same faces come in each week, regular looking people, sometimes with family or children in tow, and they seem pretty well provided for with some good ingredients for the week.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      I've done that in the past. I have a serious medical condition with significant dietary restrictions, a dead fridge and limited cooking ability. When I did that recently, a lot of what I got was cold food which spoiled overnight because my fridge is dead and I don't have the funds to replace it right now. It's just vastly better for me if I earn the money and it's not a huge amount that I need, so it's frustrating as hell that I can't come up with it consistently.
      - complexvisitor 7y ago
lisper 7y ago
I've been on the LB for months and it hasn't resulted in any contacts at all. In fact, AFAICT being on the HNLB is a complete no-op. And I'm a white male.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  It's not uncommon for someone like you to make a statement like this when I make such comments. I imagine I would be downvoted to hell and possibly crabbed at by the mods if I began researching members of the leader board to prove my case or even just began ticking off what I happen to know off the top of my head. I'm not at my best at the moment. Suffice it to say this kind of statement is part of the problem in my eyes, though it often seems motivated by good intentions. There are men who've used their popularity here to make contacts, promote their work, etc. The fact that you aren't one of them isn't actually evidence that it can't be done.
  - ars 7y ago
    You have cause and effect backwards. Those people you are thinking of are well known for what they do outside of HN, and then they attract a following on HN.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      I have reason to believe that is not universally true. Again, I'm not interested in naming names. I don't believe that goes good places.
      - juststeve 7y ago
        why do you expect that the leader board means anything? they are just internet points, no?
  - lisper 7y ago
    > someone like you Do you listen to yourself? What exactly did you mean by "someone like you"? Do you not get that the whole problem is people thinking in terms of "people like you" (i.e. "women", "muslims", "blacks", "C++ fans", "privileged white males who have had life served up to them on a silver platter") instead of "you"? > this kind of statement is part of the problem And what exactly is "this kind of statement"? Because AFAICT all I did was tell you some facts from my own experience. > There are men who've used their popularity here to make contacts, promote their work, etc. I don't doubt that (though I can't help but wonder how you would know). But so what? Different people navigate life in different ways. Let's take a look at how you present yourself. The first sentence in your HN profile is: "Actions speak louder than words. Men who loudly protest the unjust treatment of women while actively perpetuating it should be judged by their deeds, not their hollow and hypocritical words." To me that does not say, "This is a person with whom you would want to do business", it says, "This is a person with a planet-sized chip on their shoulder." You should at least consider the possibility that this has as much of an effect on people's desire to interact with you professionally as your lack of a Y chromosome, because your HN profile is actually under your control.
thrower123 7y ago
The only thing lamer than internet points is bragging about how many you have. Honestly, being on the HN leaderboard is not a particularly healthy indicator in the grander scheme of things...
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  That's not the point. It's a proxy for "Women generally don't participate much here compared to men. I participate regularly and I'm accepted to some degree." But, of course, it doesn't matter how I say it. The point gets attacked and dismissed. Because no one here wants to admit sexism genuinely is a problem, especially not if it implicates them to any degree. Somehow, it's always everyone else who's guilty, not the people nitpicking and dismissing my comments.
seventhtiger 7y ago
Don't disrespect the agency of women. Do not victimize them when they do something wrong by blaming it on society. I don't see anything unique to your financial or professional situation that suggests it's due to your gender. Before being a woman you are a person. If you're in a situation that any man or woman could find themselves in then ask what is it about you as a person that you got you here. The more you blame your gender the less room you give yourself to develop.
9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
I'm very sorry that you go through hard times but when you take a look at the homelessness statistics you would understand men are having it in comparison statistically speaking much harder.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  It's really not that simple. https://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/2017/07/gender-and-homelessness.html https://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/2017/07/g...
  - flippinburgers 7y ago
    According to the article women, I guess, have it harder because: 1) Family tends to want to take care of women. Women get custody more often! 2) Women often are able to find a man willing to take care of them. 3) Peeing in bushes is hard. With other rich quotes like "women seem this and men seem that". At most it simply proves that women have it easier.
easymodex 7y ago
I don't think "Popular commenter on HN" is a position in many companies. You're supposed to check the "Who's hiring?" threads and see where your skills would match the job description and contact them. That's about it on HN, this isn't really a job seeking board.