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“Windows has gotten good enough” As someone who took a job using Windows after 4.5 years away from it, I completely disagree. I hate windows with a passion, a

“Windows has gotten good enough” As someone who took a job using Windows after 4.5 years away from it, I completely disagree. I hate windows with a passion, and it’s part of the reason I’m looking for a new job. I’m not saying it’s not good enough for some, a lot of things in it still suck.

Paperweight 7y ago
Macs may suck, but Windows sucks even worse.
- chaostheory 7y ago
  How so?
  - innocentoldguy 7y ago
    Windows isn’t garbage or anything. It’s a decent OS, but for me: 1. I absolutely hate the latest UI changes. Not only are things hard to find and not organized very well, especially in the system settings, but the UI feels jerky and rough compared to MacOS when moving windows around or when the “Are you sure you want to do this?” dialog pops up. 2. I cannot stand working with Windows Explorer, drive letters, and the overly complex tree view. 3. Things that are easy on MacOS (i.e. rotating and cropping pictures, editing and signing PDFs, etc.) are either hard or not supported on Windows. 4. Device driver issues are more frequent on Windows and suck to fix. 5. Windows has a LOT of shitty software for it and it seems that everyone who asks me for help is running that shitty software. 6. I don’t like the cluttered UIs that most Windows applications have; like the Ribbon thing that Office introduced. 7. I don’t like .NET and Visual Studio much, and I don’t like programming for Windows. I prefer Swift and Xcode. Having said that, I do like F# quite a bit. One area where I think Windows really shines is gaming.
    - test1235 7y ago
      Does Windows really shine at gaming tho'? Or is it just that it has a larger selection of games?
      - arvinsim 7y ago
        Directx 12
      - wickedsickeune 7y ago
        Try games that also exist on Mac, on the same hardware. They perform visibly better on windows, just because of DirectX. Maybe it's because game devs know DirectX better, but still it's a superior experience even on the same hardware. (eg Civ 5 / 6, most Blizzard games)
    - unicornfinder 7y ago
      To expand on your software point, I genuinely would say that the quality of software on Windows is all-round lower. I don't know what the reason for this is - whether it's because developers prefer the tools available on macOS or if it's simply because Mac users are more inclined to pay for their software, but the quality is clearly higher.
WWLink 7y ago
It sure does. Luckily it’s good enough for my tot desktop at home, although my laptops are still macs. My work laptop cost a shit load of money, but so do the dells the rest of my team has.
trm42 7y ago
I’ve been hearing quite a lot of praise for Win10 in the last few years, but in reality my colleagues are cursing it daily and bashing their heads against basic dev stuff that works nice and dandy with Macs or with Linux. Win10 may be ok for running Microsoft’s current flagship, Office and maybe games but otherwise I wouldn’t want to spend time with fighting against the OS. And no, in my opinion WSL is not real solution if the OS still makes life harder and more weird. Just a new twist to the cygwin/mingw/virtualisation scheme when running the real thing would be a lot better option. And no, Macs and Linux are not perfect either, but they both are more friendly and humane options for developers.
- smt88 7y ago
  I dual-booted or had two machines for dev work for almost 20 years. The Windows machine was mostly for Office. Since VMs and containers because standard for development, I honestly have no idea what problems your colleagues are having. I haven't had a "Windows problem" other than the clunky UI since Win7, and the UI is 100% customizable.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    So far this morning: - a windows 2016 server for which we needed to dig deep in powershell so it wouldn't reset the clock every 6 hours - a user whose local account services is totalled and he can't access his desktop any more Personally I would like the start menu search to only look for applications but I gave up on that. I suppose using windows only for office would help, of course.
    - smt88 7y ago
      I use Windows for servers too (not my choice), and both of those things sound like a sysadmin who is making strange choices and not actual Windows bugs. I could be wrong, of course.
      - johnchristopher 7y ago
        To be fair, I don't have full control of the domain for the server and I suspect a catch-21 regarding the clock setting and the domain sync thingy. I fixed it by "resetting a lot of time thing" but I am a linux guy before a windows guy so I ended up in Powershell (which i like). I attribute the other one to a brutal shutdown of the PC that somehow corrupted a running update, some random clicking from the user in a misguided attempt to fix things behind the back of IT et voilà.
fsloth 7y ago
Windows needs a bunch of utility programs that nobody tells you which they are. After those are installed things are much more smooth. Directory management: 'Directory Opus' Fast search: 'Everything' and 'Agent Ransack' Powershell is actually pretty neat once you get past the odd syntax. But yeah, you can't turn it into a native unix env.
- chaostheory 7y ago
  > But yeah, you can't turn it into a native unix env. Has no one used WSL? It’s pretty close compared to the past. No need for powershell. You have bash now
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    > No need for powershell. You have bash now honestly, powershell is a superb weapon. Yes the syntax is .net-ish and not my preference but really the functionality is high.
- meddlepal 7y ago
  WSL2?
- alexis_fr 7y ago
  10 years on Mac and I’m still missing the Windows Explorer. One feature only: The directory tree in the left handside.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    No worries, MS is actively trying to get rid of it (by hiding some folders, by mangling some shortcuts, by putting libraries and stupid things like that first so that you rarely actually have access to the tree).
- agumonkey 7y ago
  sadly directory opus is for sale :)
chaostheory 7y ago
Curious, what sucks for you? With WSL, it’s usable for me now since Linux is baked in. Are the apps as good on a Mac? Usually not, but a lot apps on Mac aren’t even native anymore.
- lunchables 7y ago
  I assume you mean WSL2, because I'm using LTSB and stuck on WSL and it's unusable garbage. Not that I've used WSL2 just heard that it is better. On WSL (one? whatever) there is no raw socket access, zero. Cannot run something as simple as tcpdump. Plus the copy and pasting (CTRL-SHIFT-c/v) is incredibly annoying and inconsistent. Also the redraw in the terminal is really screwed up, half the time I try to go back to WSL and my terminal prompt is drawn in 3 different places on the screen.
LIV2 7y ago
Idgi, I used Macs for 10 years until the end of last year working as a Linux sysadmin/Devops kinda workflows and WSL is good enough I prefer my Mac with iTerm etc etc but I still work with WSL just as well today
banachtarski 7y ago
> I’m not saying it’s not good enough for some, a lot of things in it still suck. The onus is on you to prove that this is true and endemic to the platform and not your unfamiliarity with the workflows on Windows.
- pfranz 7y ago
  I'm not trying to start a flame war, here. I was seriously surprised. I get that some people love using Windows. I had a similar transition. I used DOS through XP/2000 heavily growing up. I worked jobs that used Linux and had a Mac at home until I had a recent job as Win10 was being adopted. I tried to give it my best effort. I got a book on Powershell and read it and researched. I was aghast that the same frustrations I had with XP and earlier hadn't been touched. I wish I had kept a log as I re-discovered them. * Nobody used PowerShell. I tried to push it, but then I realized I needed a BAT file wrapper to run PS1 files, anyway. I was hoping PowerShell would be a next-gen BASH, but having verbose flags is great in scripts, but horrible interactively. The system I was on was air-gapped and the documentation required an extra download on each system. * Man, Windows still updates a lot. Often requiring reboots. MacOS asks to reboot like twice a year (and doesn't force it). With Linux it's very, very rarely necessary to reboot. * I found window management awkward. I was coming from Linux where META+LMB moved Windows, META+MMB resized them. I tried the hot-corners shortcuts and other built-in things, I tried installing a few things. * When the UI is busy I still can't resize or minimize it? * Control Panel and other configurations were a huge mishmash of tacked on menus with a mix of old UIs and icons. * I really missed ssh-ing in to query and poke at stuff. RDP felt so heavy for small stuff that should be quick or automated. After a few months I toyed with WSL, but spent most of my time sshed into a Linux box using vim or bash when managing files or source code. Most of the small services I set up running in Linux. After a year and a half I left for a variety of reasons.
  - banachtarski 7y ago
    Have you tried the new tiling window management support software offered by microsoft? (FancyZones) Nothing stops you from installing an SSH server also. Also, you can change the update policy (although that might be due to your IT).
neoberg 7y ago
I left a job in less than a month after I started because of Windows. I haven't been to companies where there's no possibility to use a Mac for years and I didn't really think about asking during the interview. And it wasn't like the job requires using Windows. I tried for 2 weeks to set it up and get used to it but it was just not working. There was always "Oh it supports it but you need to that workaround". And WSL was crap (2 years ago, don't know about it's current state). So I gave up and resigned on the third week.
jmkni 7y ago
Maybe you aren't very good at using Windows?

Paperweight 7y ago

Macs may suck, but Windows sucks even worse.

chaostheory 7y ago
How so?
- innocentoldguy 7y ago
  Windows isn’t garbage or anything. It’s a decent OS, but for me: 1. I absolutely hate the latest UI changes. Not only are things hard to find and not organized very well, especially in the system settings, but the UI feels jerky and rough compared to MacOS when moving windows around or when the “Are you sure you want to do this?” dialog pops up. 2. I cannot stand working with Windows Explorer, drive letters, and the overly complex tree view. 3. Things that are easy on MacOS (i.e. rotating and cropping pictures, editing and signing PDFs, etc.) are either hard or not supported on Windows. 4. Device driver issues are more frequent on Windows and suck to fix. 5. Windows has a LOT of shitty software for it and it seems that everyone who asks me for help is running that shitty software. 6. I don’t like the cluttered UIs that most Windows applications have; like the Ribbon thing that Office introduced. 7. I don’t like .NET and Visual Studio much, and I don’t like programming for Windows. I prefer Swift and Xcode. Having said that, I do like F# quite a bit. One area where I think Windows really shines is gaming.
  - test1235 7y ago
    Does Windows really shine at gaming tho'? Or is it just that it has a larger selection of games?
    - arvinsim 7y ago
      Directx 12
    - wickedsickeune 7y ago
      Try games that also exist on Mac, on the same hardware. They perform visibly better on windows, just because of DirectX. Maybe it's because game devs know DirectX better, but still it's a superior experience even on the same hardware. (eg Civ 5 / 6, most Blizzard games)
  - unicornfinder 7y ago
    To expand on your software point, I genuinely would say that the quality of software on Windows is all-round lower. I don't know what the reason for this is - whether it's because developers prefer the tools available on macOS or if it's simply because Mac users are more inclined to pay for their software, but the quality is clearly higher.

WWLink 7y ago

It sure does. Luckily it’s good enough for my tot desktop at home, although my laptops are still macs. My work laptop cost a shit load of money, but so do the dells the rest of my team has.

trm42 7y ago

I’ve been hearing quite a lot of praise for Win10 in the last few years, but in reality my colleagues are cursing it daily and bashing their heads against basic dev stuff that works nice and dandy with Macs or with Linux. Win10 may be ok for running Microsoft’s current flagship, Office and maybe games but otherwise I wouldn’t want to spend time with fighting against the OS. And no, in my opinion WSL is not real solution if the OS still makes life harder and more weird. Just a new twist to the cygwin/mingw/virtualisation scheme when running the real thing would be a lot better option. And no, Macs and Linux are not perfect either, but they both are more friendly and humane options for developers.

smt88 7y ago
I dual-booted or had two machines for dev work for almost 20 years. The Windows machine was mostly for Office. Since VMs and containers because standard for development, I honestly have no idea what problems your colleagues are having. I haven't had a "Windows problem" other than the clunky UI since Win7, and the UI is 100% customizable.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  So far this morning: - a windows 2016 server for which we needed to dig deep in powershell so it wouldn't reset the clock every 6 hours - a user whose local account services is totalled and he can't access his desktop any more Personally I would like the start menu search to only look for applications but I gave up on that. I suppose using windows only for office would help, of course.
  - smt88 7y ago
    I use Windows for servers too (not my choice), and both of those things sound like a sysadmin who is making strange choices and not actual Windows bugs. I could be wrong, of course.
    - johnchristopher 7y ago
      To be fair, I don't have full control of the domain for the server and I suspect a catch-21 regarding the clock setting and the domain sync thingy. I fixed it by "resetting a lot of time thing" but I am a linux guy before a windows guy so I ended up in Powershell (which i like). I attribute the other one to a brutal shutdown of the PC that somehow corrupted a running update, some random clicking from the user in a misguided attempt to fix things behind the back of IT et voilà.

fsloth 7y ago

Windows needs a bunch of utility programs that nobody tells you which they are. After those are installed things are much more smooth. Directory management: 'Directory Opus' Fast search: 'Everything' and 'Agent Ransack' Powershell is actually pretty neat once you get past the odd syntax. But yeah, you can't turn it into a native unix env.

chaostheory 7y ago
> But yeah, you can't turn it into a native unix env. Has no one used WSL? It’s pretty close compared to the past. No need for powershell. You have bash now
- agumonkey 7y ago
  > No need for powershell. You have bash now honestly, powershell is a superb weapon. Yes the syntax is .net-ish and not my preference but really the functionality is high.
meddlepal 7y ago
WSL2?
alexis_fr 7y ago
10 years on Mac and I’m still missing the Windows Explorer. One feature only: The directory tree in the left handside.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  No worries, MS is actively trying to get rid of it (by hiding some folders, by mangling some shortcuts, by putting libraries and stupid things like that first so that you rarely actually have access to the tree).
agumonkey 7y ago
sadly directory opus is for sale :)

chaostheory 7y ago

Curious, what sucks for you? With WSL, it’s usable for me now since Linux is baked in. Are the apps as good on a Mac? Usually not, but a lot apps on Mac aren’t even native anymore.

lunchables 7y ago
I assume you mean WSL2, because I'm using LTSB and stuck on WSL and it's unusable garbage. Not that I've used WSL2 just heard that it is better. On WSL (one? whatever) there is no raw socket access, zero. Cannot run something as simple as tcpdump. Plus the copy and pasting (CTRL-SHIFT-c/v) is incredibly annoying and inconsistent. Also the redraw in the terminal is really screwed up, half the time I try to go back to WSL and my terminal prompt is drawn in 3 different places on the screen.

LIV2 7y ago

Idgi, I used Macs for 10 years until the end of last year working as a Linux sysadmin/Devops kinda workflows and WSL is good enough I prefer my Mac with iTerm etc etc but I still work with WSL just as well today

banachtarski 7y ago

> I’m not saying it’s not good enough for some, a lot of things in it still suck. The onus is on you to prove that this is true and endemic to the platform and not your unfamiliarity with the workflows on Windows.

pfranz 7y ago
I'm not trying to start a flame war, here. I was seriously surprised. I get that some people love using Windows. I had a similar transition. I used DOS through XP/2000 heavily growing up. I worked jobs that used Linux and had a Mac at home until I had a recent job as Win10 was being adopted. I tried to give it my best effort. I got a book on Powershell and read it and researched. I was aghast that the same frustrations I had with XP and earlier hadn't been touched. I wish I had kept a log as I re-discovered them. * Nobody used PowerShell. I tried to push it, but then I realized I needed a BAT file wrapper to run PS1 files, anyway. I was hoping PowerShell would be a next-gen BASH, but having verbose flags is great in scripts, but horrible interactively. The system I was on was air-gapped and the documentation required an extra download on each system. * Man, Windows still updates a lot. Often requiring reboots. MacOS asks to reboot like twice a year (and doesn't force it). With Linux it's very, very rarely necessary to reboot. * I found window management awkward. I was coming from Linux where META+LMB moved Windows, META+MMB resized them. I tried the hot-corners shortcuts and other built-in things, I tried installing a few things. * When the UI is busy I still can't resize or minimize it? * Control Panel and other configurations were a huge mishmash of tacked on menus with a mix of old UIs and icons. * I really missed ssh-ing in to query and poke at stuff. RDP felt so heavy for small stuff that should be quick or automated. After a few months I toyed with WSL, but spent most of my time sshed into a Linux box using vim or bash when managing files or source code. Most of the small services I set up running in Linux. After a year and a half I left for a variety of reasons.
- banachtarski 7y ago
  Have you tried the new tiling window management support software offered by microsoft? (FancyZones) Nothing stops you from installing an SSH server also. Also, you can change the update policy (although that might be due to your IT).

neoberg 7y ago

I left a job in less than a month after I started because of Windows. I haven't been to companies where there's no possibility to use a Mac for years and I didn't really think about asking during the interview. And it wasn't like the job requires using Windows. I tried for 2 weeks to set it up and get used to it but it was just not working. There was always "Oh it supports it but you need to that workaround". And WSL was crap (2 years ago, don't know about it's current state). So I gave up and resigned on the third week.

jmkni 7y ago

Maybe you aren't very good at using Windows?