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A $40k Tesla is on equal footing with a $25k ICE car in terms of TCO so I’m not sure why you think they are still expensive. They have come down a lot. And man

by natch 7y ago

A $40k Tesla is on equal footing with a $25k ICE car in terms of TCO so I’m not sure why you think they are still expensive. They have come down a lot. And many people who walk onto a car sales lot with $25k in mind end up getting talked into a $35k car, so with all the savings Tesla really can be the cheaper option. With Tesla if you get talked into the $50k+ stealth performance you’re still on equal footing with the $35k car until you add future self driving.

ndiscussion 7y ago
Where can I find a breakdown of the TCO like this? Is there any source? I would think that Tesla TCO would be through the roof once the cars start aging. It's one thing to have the dealership fix every little thing under warranty - quite another to pay $5,000 to have your sunroof fixed because it requires a special encryption chip.
- natch 7y ago
  Nice hyperbole but you’re either making stuff up, or confusing Tesla with Porsche.
- natch 7y ago
  Model 3 doesn’t have a sunroof.
neogodless 7y ago
I couldn't find a total cost of ownership on the Tesla Model 3, but the car I drive has a 5-year TCO of about $32k for all insurance, gas, etc. (Assuming bought new - I got it for under $20k with 8,000 miles on it.) https://www.edmunds.com/mazda/3/2015/cost-to-own/#style=200703394 https://www.edmunds.com/mazda/3/2015/cost-to-own/#style=2007... So I'm allowed to think the Model 3 is expensive. Of course, I'm just me, I'm not "mainstream." I think it's too expensive for mainstream because the only person I know that bought one is accustomed to driving high-end German cars, and she paid $60k for her Model 3. I get the feeling the mainstream doesn't believe a Tesla is affordable. Maybe they are wrong, in that if they have a garage for charging, they'd save enough in gas and maintenance to make up the difference, but most people don't buy cars based on TCO (well, I don't know that for sure, but I have a feeling that's true.)
ivalm 7y ago
For me, the problem for tesla is not the cost itself but 1) If you are in a crash, spare parts/body work takes months to complete, I can't afford to be without a car for 3-6 months. 2) Requires charging. I live in an apartment, it is unclear where I can charge.
- rconti 7y ago
  1) Is a false dichotomy. First of all, you're presuming that Tesla repairs will take 3-6 months. Secondly, you're presuming that non-Tesla repairs will take 0 minutes. I don't doubt that Tesla has more issues with parts availability than other manufacturers, but if you need a car every day, you should have a backup plan -- eg, rental car add-on to your insurance policy so you have something to drive while your primary vehicle is being repaired. I've had gas-powered cars that were in the body shop for a month or more.
  - ivalm 7y ago
    Most rental car insurance is for 1 month, which is enough to repair most cars. I am ok with losing my car for 1 month to repair. The problem with Tesla is that people get stuck with body repair queues that are ~6 months [0] [0] - https://www.sfgate.com/cars/article/tesla-repair-wait-time-complaints-electric-car-13796037.php https://www.sfgate.com/cars/article/tesla-repair-wait-time-c...
    - natch 7y ago
      I guess you haven’t been keeping up or reading the replies to your own comments. Tesla has in house body work now to address this kind of thing. They are fixing the problems you have heard about.
- natch 7y ago
  We have one and live in an apartment. I charge at work (free) usually and other times at a supercharger. Using a supercharger all the time slightly shortens battery life in theory especially if you do it wrong, but we do it less wrong. And Model S owners who have been exclusively supercharging have been reporting that their battery degradation is not bad at all. The body work issues you mention are mostly in the past. And you wouldn’t be without a car. So, red herrings.
Marsymars 7y ago
> A $40k Tesla is on equal footing with a $25k ICE car in terms of TCO so I’m not sure why you think they are still expensive. They have come down a lot. In the American market. In Canada, a Model 3 now costs the same as a Model S did at launch. Other manufacturers have worked out ways to soften the price increase due to currency fluctuations. Every so often I run numbers on electric cars for my use, but I'm never able to get a break-even point that isn't measured in decades.
- natch 7y ago
  What is the cost going to be if the permafrost releases all its methane? Pretty high.
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    I'd absolutely support a carbon tax to capture such externalities (which would increase the purchase and fuel costs for all cars, but proportionally less so for electrics), but I don't have the personal luxury of spending the additional money for electric car - I'd just drive my ICE car less.
    - natch 7y ago
      If enough people think like you the carbon tax is going to be an everything tax (sea walls, relocations of populations, etc.) which is going to cost a lot more than a Tesla price differential.
      - Marsymars 7y ago
        Well... no, a carbon tax can/should be sufficiently high to cover those externalities. I'd support that. I'd probably wouldn't be able to afford a car at all anymore, which would be much more environmentally friendly than an electric car.
        natch 7y ago
        >I'd probably wouldn't be able to afford a car at all anymore If you have purchased a Tesla before that point, others will be paying you for rides in your self-driving car as part of a ride-hailing fleet. Just a thought, might not pan out, as with any investment. It's not so much about what you support... the tax will come down from above with or without your support. It's more about what investments are you willing to make personally, because that part is really up to you. There are risks, to be sure, but in the meantime it's a fun, safe car that doesn't cost as much as people think.
GuB-42 7y ago
According to Tesla themselves, the "potential savings" on the Model 3 are $8,675. They advertise the cheapest Model 3 at being on equal footing with a $30,315 ICE car. In a quite misleading way I must say.
- chc 7y ago
  AFAIK, Tesla's "savings" number is not meant to be TCO, just an adjustment for the price of gas vs. electricity. It doesn't factor in the lower amount of maintenance needed on an EV (maybe because they still want to sell service plans).
- natch 7y ago
  What chc said. But yes I agree I don’t like the way they display the price after savings first. I guess they are fighting the issue that most people don’t have this savings top of mind. It’s their call to make. I’m sure it rubs some people the wrong way enough to scare them off. I wonder if they have done A/B testing with it.

by natch 7y ago

ndiscussion 7y ago

Where can I find a breakdown of the TCO like this? Is there any source? I would think that Tesla TCO would be through the roof once the cars start aging. It's one thing to have the dealership fix every little thing under warranty - quite another to pay $5,000 to have your sunroof fixed because it requires a special encryption chip.

natch 7y ago
Nice hyperbole but you’re either making stuff up, or confusing Tesla with Porsche.
natch 7y ago
Model 3 doesn’t have a sunroof.

neogodless 7y ago

I couldn't find a total cost of ownership on the Tesla Model 3, but the car I drive has a 5-year TCO of about $32k for all insurance, gas, etc. (Assuming bought new - I got it for under $20k with 8,000 miles on it.) https://www.edmunds.com/mazda/3/2015/cost-to-own/#style=200703394 https://www.edmunds.com/mazda/3/2015/cost-to-own/#style=2007... So I'm allowed to think the Model 3 is expensive. Of course, I'm just me, I'm not "mainstream." I think it's too expensive for mainstream because the only person I know that bought one is accustomed to driving high-end German cars, and she paid $60k for her Model 3. I get the feeling the mainstream doesn't believe a Tesla is affordable. Maybe they are wrong, in that if they have a garage for charging, they'd save enough in gas and maintenance to make up the difference, but most people don't buy cars based on TCO (well, I don't know that for sure, but I have a feeling that's true.)

ivalm 7y ago

For me, the problem for tesla is not the cost itself but 1) If you are in a crash, spare parts/body work takes months to complete, I can't afford to be without a car for 3-6 months. 2) Requires charging. I live in an apartment, it is unclear where I can charge.

rconti 7y ago
1) Is a false dichotomy. First of all, you're presuming that Tesla repairs will take 3-6 months. Secondly, you're presuming that non-Tesla repairs will take 0 minutes. I don't doubt that Tesla has more issues with parts availability than other manufacturers, but if you need a car every day, you should have a backup plan -- eg, rental car add-on to your insurance policy so you have something to drive while your primary vehicle is being repaired. I've had gas-powered cars that were in the body shop for a month or more.
- ivalm 7y ago
  Most rental car insurance is for 1 month, which is enough to repair most cars. I am ok with losing my car for 1 month to repair. The problem with Tesla is that people get stuck with body repair queues that are ~6 months [0] [0] - https://www.sfgate.com/cars/article/tesla-repair-wait-time-complaints-electric-car-13796037.php https://www.sfgate.com/cars/article/tesla-repair-wait-time-c...
  - natch 7y ago
    I guess you haven’t been keeping up or reading the replies to your own comments. Tesla has in house body work now to address this kind of thing. They are fixing the problems you have heard about.
natch 7y ago
We have one and live in an apartment. I charge at work (free) usually and other times at a supercharger. Using a supercharger all the time slightly shortens battery life in theory especially if you do it wrong, but we do it less wrong. And Model S owners who have been exclusively supercharging have been reporting that their battery degradation is not bad at all. The body work issues you mention are mostly in the past. And you wouldn’t be without a car. So, red herrings.

Marsymars 7y ago

> A $40k Tesla is on equal footing with a $25k ICE car in terms of TCO so I’m not sure why you think they are still expensive. They have come down a lot. In the American market. In Canada, a Model 3 now costs the same as a Model S did at launch. Other manufacturers have worked out ways to soften the price increase due to currency fluctuations. Every so often I run numbers on electric cars for my use, but I'm never able to get a break-even point that isn't measured in decades.

natch 7y ago
What is the cost going to be if the permafrost releases all its methane? Pretty high.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  I'd absolutely support a carbon tax to capture such externalities (which would increase the purchase and fuel costs for all cars, but proportionally less so for electrics), but I don't have the personal luxury of spending the additional money for electric car - I'd just drive my ICE car less.
  - natch 7y ago
    If enough people think like you the carbon tax is going to be an everything tax (sea walls, relocations of populations, etc.) which is going to cost a lot more than a Tesla price differential.
    - Marsymars 7y ago
      Well... no, a carbon tax can/should be sufficiently high to cover those externalities. I'd support that. I'd probably wouldn't be able to afford a car at all anymore, which would be much more environmentally friendly than an electric car.
      - natch 7y ago
        >I'd probably wouldn't be able to afford a car at all anymore If you have purchased a Tesla before that point, others will be paying you for rides in your self-driving car as part of a ride-hailing fleet. Just a thought, might not pan out, as with any investment. It's not so much about what you support... the tax will come down from above with or without your support. It's more about what investments are you willing to make personally, because that part is really up to you. There are risks, to be sure, but in the meantime it's a fun, safe car that doesn't cost as much as people think.

GuB-42 7y ago

According to Tesla themselves, the "potential savings" on the Model 3 are $8,675. They advertise the cheapest Model 3 at being on equal footing with a $30,315 ICE car. In a quite misleading way I must say.

chc 7y ago
AFAIK, Tesla's "savings" number is not meant to be TCO, just an adjustment for the price of gas vs. electricity. It doesn't factor in the lower amount of maintenance needed on an EV (maybe because they still want to sell service plans).
natch 7y ago
What chc said. But yes I agree I don’t like the way they display the price after savings first. I guess they are fighting the issue that most people don’t have this savings top of mind. It’s their call to make. I’m sure it rubs some people the wrong way enough to scare them off. I wonder if they have done A/B testing with it.