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Somewhat tangential, I just visited a Polestar 2 booth set-up downtown Toronto, it's designed by Volvo but will be manufactured in China, it is really impressiv

Somewhat tangential, I just visited a Polestar 2 booth set-up downtown Toronto, it's designed by Volvo but will be manufactured in China, it is really impressive vehicle, both looks and specs.

cpursley 7y ago
While I agree the Polestars are neat from a performance perspective, Volvos are some of the most unreliable vehicles that you can buy. But Luxury && Performance != Quality.
- skyyler 7y ago
  Is this an opinion or is your position supported by evidence? The only thing I think of when I hear "Volvo" is safety. Not luxury, not performance, not quality, not reliability, not anything but safety. I would be very surprised if they were less reliable than most sports cars.
  - neogodless 7y ago
    https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-2018-2018-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-20... This is just one data point, sourced from Consumer Reports. They put Volvo last behind Cadillac and Tesla. Then I look here... https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings And Cadillac is on top. But I'd personally trust Consumer Reports over JD Power.
    - djd20 7y ago
      "Consumer Reports said multiple Volvo vehicles, including the XC60 and XC90 SUVs and the S90 sedan, were reported to have issues with their display screens and infotainment systems, including freezes and a failure to display. The publication said issues had also been reported with the XC60's climate system along with rattles inside its cabin, while the S90 also had problems reported relating to engine knocking or pinging. Of the three Volvo models it analyzed, Consumer Reports rated the XC60 as Volvo's most reliable vehicle and the S90 as the brand's least reliable vehicle." Really? The infotainment system makes it rank low? edit: and looking at the _actual_ report https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/10-least-reliable-cars/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... - no volvo's on the list?
      - riversflow 7y ago
        I’m pretty sure that’s not the full report, irc they release a beefy car buyers guide each year to members with the full report, and Consumer Reports has rules against the republishing of the data in their reports. It makes sense to me. A new car shouldn't have problems, full stop. My 25 yo car got its first maintenance in 5 years apart from oil, the only problem it has is the air switcher is cranky, and that took over 20 years to crop up. If i bought a Volvo (which I’ve been considering because all I want to upgrade on is safety) and it has a problem in the first few years of ownership, even if it was under warranty, I’d be LIVID! And while we are on the topic of reliability, with the warranties that come with most unreliable cars, why _wouldnt_ a bugged infotainment system rank the car lower just as much as mechanical issues—either way it’s just a trip to the dealer. I see cars as an appliance, I don’t want to think about it, I just want to use it. So none of this really makes sense to me, if all consumers shared the same sentiment, I feel certain that the market would look considerably different.
      - navigatesol 7y ago
        >"Really? The infotainment system makes it rank low" Yes, because modern cars are so good nowadays that people expect perfection. We are a two car family. In the past decade I've owned Volkswagen, Honda, Toyota, Ford, Mazda, Subaru and Nissan. All have been perfectly good cars, reliability wise. My last two leases I didn't do a thing beyond oil changes for four years, not even tires or brakes. Besides the odd car having some random thing replaced at the dealership under warranty, nothing ever went wrong with any of them. I realize that's not everyone's experience, but I'm not a lottery winner either. Modern cars are a feat of engineering.
  - ptaipale 7y ago
    I wonder why the American listings put Volvo at bottom (as there is no comprehensive annual inspection like the MOT or TÜV checks in Europe). In Europe, the bottom quality tends to be American and some French and Italian cars. A fairly detailed statistics is from TÜV annual inspection reports, found here: http://www.anusedcar.com/ http://www.anusedcar.com/ There, Volvo is rather average. Where I live (Finland), Volvos tend to get a bit more kilometers than most other brands, so being not at the bottom of listing means they're doing reasonable quality.
    - cpursley 7y ago
      Volvo is down there with American brands in the American reports...
    - wavefunction 7y ago
      I can only speak anecdotally but Volvos have a reputation in America for requiring more maintenance more frequently than other manufacturers.
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    Geely's Volvo is solidly a luxury proposition. I see people cross-shopping Volvo and Porsche SUVs.
- cpursley 7y ago
  I guess Volvo owners are the ones down voting. I suppose I should have provided sources... Look, they're nice driving cars with really nice design and safety features. But: - https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-2018-2018-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-20... > Volvo ranked last with an average reliability score of 22 out of 100, and Cadillac ranked second-to-last with a reliability score of 32. - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2018/10/25/the-most-and-least-reliable-rides-on-the-road/#22d7bf7852c7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2018/10/25/the-mos... > Volvo is the lowest-ranked brand for reliability, due largely to problems with its electronics. - https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/most-reliable-car-brands https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/most-reliable-car-brands > Bear in mind that luxury doesn’t necessarily equate to reliability, with Volvo and Land Rover falling near the bottom.
- eldenbishop 7y ago
  Old Volvos had that unreliable reliable quality to them where something was always broken or going wrong but you could keep it essentially useable forever. My handyman was an old Russian dude with something like 360k miles on an old Volvo station wagon. Another old dude in my village has similar miles on theirs. I don't expect modern Volvos are going to hit these kind of miles.
throwaway1777 7y ago
Over 50k euro price though. You get what you pay for.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Nitpick: You never get more than you pay for. You can easily get less than you pay for. Edit: Why is this an unpopular opinion? If I offended the fanboys by implying Tesla or Toyota or Apple made overpriced products I would understand but I'm struggling to understand what thought process leads to disagreeing with my statement in the general case.
  - jiveturkey 7y ago
    downvotes don't (mostly don't) imply disagreement, except for some hot button topics. which for better or worse this one is. in this case i would tend to think it's appropriate, whether or not they were given for the right reasons. your nitpick only serves to detract from substantive conversation. nitpicks (other than security nits, which tend to be substantive) and typo corrections are highly discouraged here.
  - neogodless 7y ago
    A purchase is a transaction between two parties, each with incomplete information. You can certainly get more than you pay for and there are at least two situations where that's true. First, if you have a lot of money, the relative or marginal value of money for you is probably pretty low. You could spend a lot on something, and actually get lots of utility and value from it, exceeding the value of the money. Second, you could just have useful information about the thing that you're purchasing that the seller lacks, or you could have skills or some other ability to extract greater value out of the item you purchase. For example - a property or building that you happen to be able to rent, sell or otherwise turn into a profitable business.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Of course there's cases where a sale must be made quickly so you may get the widget for $4 but one could argue that you're bringing $1 of value by being able to make the transaction at that time. If a widget is generally sold for $5 and you can make some amount of that back using the widget doesn't mean you're getting more than you pay for if you pay $5 for it. My coworker is buying a lightly used $7500 Chevy spark. It's a $7500 car for a reason. Most people don't want it because its small, pretty slow and the specs aren't that great. It is a great car for his use case, equal or better than lots of $10k cars. That doesn't mean he's getting more than he's paying for.

Somewhat tangential, I just visited a Polestar 2 booth set-up downtown Toronto, it's designed by Volvo but will be manufactured in China, it is really impressive vehicle, both looks and specs.

cpursley 7y ago

While I agree the Polestars are neat from a performance perspective, Volvos are some of the most unreliable vehicles that you can buy. But Luxury && Performance != Quality.

skyyler 7y ago
Is this an opinion or is your position supported by evidence? The only thing I think of when I hear "Volvo" is safety. Not luxury, not performance, not quality, not reliability, not anything but safety. I would be very surprised if they were less reliable than most sports cars.
- neogodless 7y ago
  https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-2018-2018-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-20... This is just one data point, sourced from Consumer Reports. They put Volvo last behind Cadillac and Tesla. Then I look here... https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings https://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings And Cadillac is on top. But I'd personally trust Consumer Reports over JD Power.
  - djd20 7y ago
    "Consumer Reports said multiple Volvo vehicles, including the XC60 and XC90 SUVs and the S90 sedan, were reported to have issues with their display screens and infotainment systems, including freezes and a failure to display. The publication said issues had also been reported with the XC60's climate system along with rattles inside its cabin, while the S90 also had problems reported relating to engine knocking or pinging. Of the three Volvo models it analyzed, Consumer Reports rated the XC60 as Volvo's most reliable vehicle and the S90 as the brand's least reliable vehicle." Really? The infotainment system makes it rank low? edit: and looking at the _actual_ report https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/10-least-reliable-cars/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... - no volvo's on the list?
    - riversflow 7y ago
      I’m pretty sure that’s not the full report, irc they release a beefy car buyers guide each year to members with the full report, and Consumer Reports has rules against the republishing of the data in their reports. It makes sense to me. A new car shouldn't have problems, full stop. My 25 yo car got its first maintenance in 5 years apart from oil, the only problem it has is the air switcher is cranky, and that took over 20 years to crop up. If i bought a Volvo (which I’ve been considering because all I want to upgrade on is safety) and it has a problem in the first few years of ownership, even if it was under warranty, I’d be LIVID! And while we are on the topic of reliability, with the warranties that come with most unreliable cars, why _wouldnt_ a bugged infotainment system rank the car lower just as much as mechanical issues—either way it’s just a trip to the dealer. I see cars as an appliance, I don’t want to think about it, I just want to use it. So none of this really makes sense to me, if all consumers shared the same sentiment, I feel certain that the market would look considerably different.
    - navigatesol 7y ago
      >"Really? The infotainment system makes it rank low" Yes, because modern cars are so good nowadays that people expect perfection. We are a two car family. In the past decade I've owned Volkswagen, Honda, Toyota, Ford, Mazda, Subaru and Nissan. All have been perfectly good cars, reliability wise. My last two leases I didn't do a thing beyond oil changes for four years, not even tires or brakes. Besides the odd car having some random thing replaced at the dealership under warranty, nothing ever went wrong with any of them. I realize that's not everyone's experience, but I'm not a lottery winner either. Modern cars are a feat of engineering.
- ptaipale 7y ago
  I wonder why the American listings put Volvo at bottom (as there is no comprehensive annual inspection like the MOT or TÜV checks in Europe). In Europe, the bottom quality tends to be American and some French and Italian cars. A fairly detailed statistics is from TÜV annual inspection reports, found here: http://www.anusedcar.com/ http://www.anusedcar.com/ There, Volvo is rather average. Where I live (Finland), Volvos tend to get a bit more kilometers than most other brands, so being not at the bottom of listing means they're doing reasonable quality.
  - cpursley 7y ago
    Volvo is down there with American brands in the American reports...
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    I can only speak anecdotally but Volvos have a reputation in America for requiring more maintenance more frequently than other manufacturers.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  Geely's Volvo is solidly a luxury proposition. I see people cross-shopping Volvo and Porsche SUVs.
cpursley 7y ago
I guess Volvo owners are the ones down voting. I suppose I should have provided sources... Look, they're nice driving cars with really nice design and safety features. But: - https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-2018-2018-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/car-brands-least-reliable-20... > Volvo ranked last with an average reliability score of 22 out of 100, and Cadillac ranked second-to-last with a reliability score of 32. - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2018/10/25/the-most-and-least-reliable-rides-on-the-road/#22d7bf7852c7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2018/10/25/the-mos... > Volvo is the lowest-ranked brand for reliability, due largely to problems with its electronics. - https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/most-reliable-car-brands https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/most-reliable-car-brands > Bear in mind that luxury doesn’t necessarily equate to reliability, with Volvo and Land Rover falling near the bottom.
eldenbishop 7y ago
Old Volvos had that unreliable reliable quality to them where something was always broken or going wrong but you could keep it essentially useable forever. My handyman was an old Russian dude with something like 360k miles on an old Volvo station wagon. Another old dude in my village has similar miles on theirs. I don't expect modern Volvos are going to hit these kind of miles.

throwaway1777 7y ago

Over 50k euro price though. You get what you pay for.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Nitpick: You never get more than you pay for. You can easily get less than you pay for. Edit: Why is this an unpopular opinion? If I offended the fanboys by implying Tesla or Toyota or Apple made overpriced products I would understand but I'm struggling to understand what thought process leads to disagreeing with my statement in the general case.
- jiveturkey 7y ago
  downvotes don't (mostly don't) imply disagreement, except for some hot button topics. which for better or worse this one is. in this case i would tend to think it's appropriate, whether or not they were given for the right reasons. your nitpick only serves to detract from substantive conversation. nitpicks (other than security nits, which tend to be substantive) and typo corrections are highly discouraged here.
- neogodless 7y ago
  A purchase is a transaction between two parties, each with incomplete information. You can certainly get more than you pay for and there are at least two situations where that's true. First, if you have a lot of money, the relative or marginal value of money for you is probably pretty low. You could spend a lot on something, and actually get lots of utility and value from it, exceeding the value of the money. Second, you could just have useful information about the thing that you're purchasing that the seller lacks, or you could have skills or some other ability to extract greater value out of the item you purchase. For example - a property or building that you happen to be able to rent, sell or otherwise turn into a profitable business.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Of course there's cases where a sale must be made quickly so you may get the widget for $4 but one could argue that you're bringing $1 of value by being able to make the transaction at that time. If a widget is generally sold for $5 and you can make some amount of that back using the widget doesn't mean you're getting more than you pay for if you pay $5 for it. My coworker is buying a lightly used $7500 Chevy spark. It's a $7500 car for a reason. Most people don't want it because its small, pretty slow and the specs aren't that great. It is a great car for his use case, equal or better than lots of $10k cars. That doesn't mean he's getting more than he's paying for.