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> The thing that bothers me the most about framing this as "foreign influence" is that precisely no one knows even remotely accurately how much foreign influenc

> The thing that bothers me the most about framing this as "foreign influence" is that precisely no one knows even remotely accurately how much foreign influence is taking place in Western countries, but this meme has been repeated 24 x 7 for years now, typically with hat tips to "evidence" (which is usually just a narrative based theory based on some inconclusive circumstantial evidence, if you follow the thread of evidence through the articles), that the majority of the population seems not just completely convinced that it is an epidemic, but they will passionately argue against anyone who asks where's the beef. But that's the thing, if people don't really know how much trolling, extremism, and disinformation is real vs. manufactured, Russian intelligence services have achieved their goal. People will argue over nothing, accuse others of being bots, and imagine new conspiracy theories based on the idea that foreign hands are meddling in things. The goal is to sow chaos, so if people respond with hysteria, that still achieves the goal. Understanding and not reflexively reacting to trolling, regardless of the source, is what can blunt the influence of the behavior. If people are not even aware of the deliberate trolling attempts, it's less likely they'll be able to counter it, or at least ignore it.

mistermann 7y ago
> But that's the thing, if people don't really know how much trolling, extremism, and disinformation is real vs. manufactured, Russian intelligence services _have_ achieved their goal This is speculation about a plausible narrative. You do not know what the Russian intelligence services are doing. You have been _told_, repeatedly, across all forms of media, by state sponsored entities, corporate entities, and individuals affiliated with no one, that Russia _is_ doing a variety of things. This may be true, this may be not. You and I do not know, and I have yet to encounter a single organization that actually knows and can provide actual evidence, rather than plausible narratives. > People will argue over nothing, accuse others of being bots, and imagine new conspiracy theories based on the idea that foreign hands are meddling in things. You are absolutely correct. > The goal is to sow chaos, so if people respond with hysteria, that still achieves the goal. Understanding and not reflexively reacting to trolling, regardless of the source, is what can blunt the influence of the behavior. If people are not even aware of the deliberate trolling attempts, it's less likely they'll be able to counter it, or at least ignore it. This is a narrative, based on an advertised version of reality combined with the powerful ability of the human mind to imagine things so vividly, they are effectively indistinguishable from experienced reality. Think about it for a minute: how did you come to know what is _really_ going on? Trace back through your memory and make note of the evidence that is unequivocally factual, writing it down on a piece of paper as you go. You might be surprised what you come up with.
toxik 7y ago
Thermodynamics tells us that order will always tend to chaos, and why not so for social cohesion? Unless you have some uniting force, the conversations will devolve into finger-pointing like it so often does. In conversations like these, I find it helpful to remember that the world is actually becoming a better place to live on, day by day, in spite of our best efforts to stifle that advance.

mistermann 7y ago

> But that's the thing, if people don't really know how much trolling, extremism, and disinformation is real vs. manufactured, Russian intelligence services _have_ achieved their goal This is speculation about a plausible narrative. You do not know what the Russian intelligence services are doing. You have been _told_, repeatedly, across all forms of media, by state sponsored entities, corporate entities, and individuals affiliated with no one, that Russia _is_ doing a variety of things. This may be true, this may be not. You and I do not know, and I have yet to encounter a single organization that actually knows and can provide actual evidence, rather than plausible narratives. > People will argue over nothing, accuse others of being bots, and imagine new conspiracy theories based on the idea that foreign hands are meddling in things. You are absolutely correct. > The goal is to sow chaos, so if people respond with hysteria, that still achieves the goal. Understanding and not reflexively reacting to trolling, regardless of the source, is what can blunt the influence of the behavior. If people are not even aware of the deliberate trolling attempts, it's less likely they'll be able to counter it, or at least ignore it. This is a narrative, based on an advertised version of reality combined with the powerful ability of the human mind to imagine things so vividly, they are effectively indistinguishable from experienced reality. Think about it for a minute: how did you come to know what is _really_ going on? Trace back through your memory and make note of the evidence that is unequivocally factual, writing it down on a piece of paper as you go. You might be surprised what you come up with.

toxik 7y ago

Thermodynamics tells us that order will always tend to chaos, and why not so for social cohesion? Unless you have some uniting force, the conversations will devolve into finger-pointing like it so often does. In conversations like these, I find it helpful to remember that the world is actually becoming a better place to live on, day by day, in spite of our best efforts to stifle that advance.