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People voted for 'leave'. At the time, what 'leave' looked like was deliberately left open, by both sides. It's now received wisdom that that 'leave' meant that

by pmyteh 7y ago

People voted for 'leave'. At the time, what 'leave' looked like was deliberately left open, by both sides. It's now received wisdom that that 'leave' meant that people wanted no deal Brexit and they wanted it hard, but that simply isn't true. As a separate issue, the windows of both sides on 'acceptable' Brexits have been diverging quickly, partly because everyone is now sick of it and partly because the hardcore on both sides are taking the opportunity to seize control of the narrative. As a consequence, anything short of WTO terms is now "BRINO" (which would actually describe the kind of Norway-plus exit fantasised by some on the Remain side after the defeat) and contrariwise anything short of revocation without a referendum is a betrayal of truth and justice. Never mind. It's not like we wanted a functioning polity after this is resolved, in any case...

growlist 7y ago
> At the time, what 'leave' looked like was deliberately left open, by both sides. This is not true. There is a video with at least Cameron, Osborne, Hillary Benn, Andrew Adonis, John Major, Peter Mandelson and possibly others that compiles some of their statements during the referendum campaign. I cannot find this video as it is either hidden or not on YouTube, but it pops up on Twitter from time to time. Each of them makes categorically clear that leaving means leaving the institutions, single market etc. etc. in terms that very much describe what the Remain camp has termed (in a manner that would make Orwell proud) a 'hard Brexit' - indeed, the very point of their calamitous prognostications was aimed at striking fear into the electorate in order that they vote to remain. There were voices in the Remain campaign clearly describing the hardest Brexit imaginable specifically in order to deter people from voting for it. To deny this in the face of overwhelming evidence is well, I'm not sure what to think of it but it's not honest argument.
- pmyteh 7y ago
  And there are statements by the leave campaign saying that single market membership was on the table. Different parts of both campaigns saying different things to different audiences. And please don't accuse people of dishonest argument here. We don't do that.
  - growlist 7y ago
    Oh please, I was gentle with you given your statement.

by pmyteh 7y ago

growlist 7y ago

> At the time, what 'leave' looked like was deliberately left open, by both sides. This is not true. There is a video with at least Cameron, Osborne, Hillary Benn, Andrew Adonis, John Major, Peter Mandelson and possibly others that compiles some of their statements during the referendum campaign. I cannot find this video as it is either hidden or not on YouTube, but it pops up on Twitter from time to time. Each of them makes categorically clear that leaving means leaving the institutions, single market etc. etc. in terms that very much describe what the Remain camp has termed (in a manner that would make Orwell proud) a 'hard Brexit' - indeed, the very point of their calamitous prognostications was aimed at striking fear into the electorate in order that they vote to remain. There were voices in the Remain campaign clearly describing the hardest Brexit imaginable specifically in order to deter people from voting for it. To deny this in the face of overwhelming evidence is well, I'm not sure what to think of it but it's not honest argument.

pmyteh 7y ago
And there are statements by the leave campaign saying that single market membership was on the table. Different parts of both campaigns saying different things to different audiences. And please don't accuse people of dishonest argument here. We don't do that.
- growlist 7y ago
  Oh please, I was gentle with you given your statement.