4 ms·

Church is also the community of people coming together, it’s nuns and priests going on missions to countries in need, it’s priests doing Sunday service for peop

by krychu 7y ago

Church is also the community of people coming together, it’s nuns and priests going on missions to countries in need, it’s priests doing Sunday service for people who believe. Have you excluded these from your definition of Church or do you think these are also cancer?

pluma 7y ago
That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.
- dagw 7y ago
  There is also the important distinction between a church and The Church. The Church (which I agree is rotten) has very little to do with the day to day running of any given church. We're almost at a point where individual churches are trying to isolate themselves from The Church.
  - pluma 7y ago
    Hah, I'm amazed my comment got flagged. The article is literally about _the German Catholic Church_ and we're talking about _the Polish Catholic Church_, which are both formal organisations. I know Americans have more "churches" than people but in Europe local church communities are normally organised in larger, formal structures. In the case of the German and Polish Catholic Churches, they're even under direct control of the Vatican, i.e. the Catholic Church proper. Yes, your local community may be good and if it's an independent church like most religious groups in the US are, it may be completely removed from any greater politics but Catholic churches are very much part of the Catholic Church proper (i.e. if a priest steps out of line, they risk being removed -- which btw is exactly what happened when a Catholic priest in Germany in the 1990s openly preached views that the Church considered too progressive). A small religious community may hold okay views and be nice and dandy, but organised religion (and especially the Catholic Church) is rotten to the core. And I say that as a baptised & confirmed Catholic in Germany.
- krychu 7y ago
  < Church is an institution. This is incorrect. Its original meaning is "assembly", "meeting" and refers to a group of people more than a building/denomination/organization: https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Wrong. The original meaning of a word is irrelevant. The definition of a word in the English language is whatever people currently use it for.
    - high_5 7y ago
      That's how people start talking past each other just to prove their own worldview. And that's not communication.
      - magduf 7y ago
        That's literally how the English language works. It's defined by popular usage. So one person using a word "wrongly" is indeed "wrong", but if most people use a word "wrongly", then it becomes correct.
  - pluma 7y ago
    That's orthogonal to the conversation. The conversation was clearly about organised religion, i.e. specifically the Catholic Church (in Poland or Germany but also in general as a larger entity). It doesn't get much more organised than the Catholic Church. It was also clear that "church" in this context is used in the sense of "a formal religious organisation", especially because churches as formal organisations are legal entities in these countries. What the term _originally meant_ is interesting but utterly irrelevant given that the meaning clearly doesn't match the intended meaning and the intended meaning is widely enough understood (and matches the Polish and German equivalent terminology). That said, linking to a website operated by a conservative Evangelical ministry that preaches Young Earth Creationism and considers Catholic "non-Christians" ... in a conversation that's primarily about the Catholic church ... is "funny" to say the least.

by krychu 7y ago

pluma 7y ago

That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.

dagw 7y ago
There is also the important distinction between a church and The Church. The Church (which I agree is rotten) has very little to do with the day to day running of any given church. We're almost at a point where individual churches are trying to isolate themselves from The Church.
- pluma 7y ago
  Hah, I'm amazed my comment got flagged. The article is literally about _the German Catholic Church_ and we're talking about _the Polish Catholic Church_, which are both formal organisations. I know Americans have more "churches" than people but in Europe local church communities are normally organised in larger, formal structures. In the case of the German and Polish Catholic Churches, they're even under direct control of the Vatican, i.e. the Catholic Church proper. Yes, your local community may be good and if it's an independent church like most religious groups in the US are, it may be completely removed from any greater politics but Catholic churches are very much part of the Catholic Church proper (i.e. if a priest steps out of line, they risk being removed -- which btw is exactly what happened when a Catholic priest in Germany in the 1990s openly preached views that the Church considered too progressive). A small religious community may hold okay views and be nice and dandy, but organised religion (and especially the Catholic Church) is rotten to the core. And I say that as a baptised & confirmed Catholic in Germany.
krychu 7y ago
< Church is an institution. This is incorrect. Its original meaning is "assembly", "meeting" and refers to a group of people more than a building/denomination/organization: https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html.
- magduf 7y ago
  Wrong. The original meaning of a word is irrelevant. The definition of a word in the English language is whatever people currently use it for.
  - high_5 7y ago
    That's how people start talking past each other just to prove their own worldview. And that's not communication.
    - magduf 7y ago
      That's literally how the English language works. It's defined by popular usage. So one person using a word "wrongly" is indeed "wrong", but if most people use a word "wrongly", then it becomes correct.
- pluma 7y ago
  That's orthogonal to the conversation. The conversation was clearly about organised religion, i.e. specifically the Catholic Church (in Poland or Germany but also in general as a larger entity). It doesn't get much more organised than the Catholic Church. It was also clear that "church" in this context is used in the sense of "a formal religious organisation", especially because churches as formal organisations are legal entities in these countries. What the term _originally meant_ is interesting but utterly irrelevant given that the meaning clearly doesn't match the intended meaning and the intended meaning is widely enough understood (and matches the Polish and German equivalent terminology). That said, linking to a website operated by a conservative Evangelical ministry that preaches Young Earth Creationism and considers Catholic "non-Christians" ... in a conversation that's primarily about the Catholic church ... is "funny" to say the least.