7 ms·

Detention camps: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/assam-detention-centre-inside-indias-1st-detention-centre-for-illegal-immigrants-after-nrc-school-ho-2099626 h

by kamaal 7y ago

Detention camps: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/assam-detention-centre-inside-indias-1st-detention-centre-for-illegal-immigrants-after-nrc-school-ho-2099626 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/assam-detention-centre-insid... http://www.newindianexpress.com/thesundaystandard/2019/sep/22/left-out-of-nrc-these-workers-are-helping-build-largest-detention-camp-to-feed-their-families-2037162.html http://www.newindianexpress.com/thesundaystandard/2019/sep/2... https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/assam-seeks-10-more-detention-centres-to-hold-illegal-foreigners/story-fHtbCWAQQRWR0op8XM7QuM.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/assam-seeks-10-mor... >>What experiments? A citizenship register? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws Also look up to this thing called 'The Holocaust'. All the best.

alkonaut 7y ago
I'm familiar with the holocaust. I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers, much less to the holocaust. My question was: isn't registries of people normal in most countries? There must be something about these registries that is bad, in the way they are created or (ab)used.
- kamaal 7y ago
  >>I'm familiar with the holocaust. Doesn't look like it. >>I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers, much less to the holocaust. Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws On April 12, 1933, the German government announced plans to conduct a long-delayed national census.[2]:54 The project was particularly important to the Nazis as a mechanism for the identification of Jews, Gypsies, and other ethnic groups deemed undesirable by the regime. Dehomag offered to assist the German government in its task of ethnic identification, concentrating upon the 41 million residents of Prussia.[2]:55 This activity was not only countenanced by Thomas Watson and IBM in America, Black argues, but was actively encouraged and financially supported, with Watson himself traveling to Germany in October 1933 and the company ramping up its investment in its German subsidiary from 400,000 to 7,000,000 Reichsmark—about $1 million.[2]:60 This injection of American capital allowed Dehomag to purchase land in Berlin and to construct IBM's first factory in Germany, Black charges, thereby "tooling up for what it correctly saw as a massive financial relationship with the Hitler regime".[2]:60 They even bought in state of the art technology of the day to track all those people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Also... Holocaust didn't start at the concentration camps. It started way earlier. It's not easy to convince ordinary good people like you to support gassing millions of people. The Nazis had to first build a case(propaganda, brainwashing, racial pride, internal enemies, traitors etc etc kind of trash), then the filters(list(registers) of people whom to gas), processes, logistics and infrastructure to execute a project of that horrific scale. In this case there is an explicit intent in the form of citizenship amendment bill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_Amendment_Bill_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_Amendment_Bill_201... and then nationwide NRC and camps as to what should be done. And the whole surrounding social case of lynchings and pogroms.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    > > I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers, much less to the holocaust. > Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws You still not argued why registers of people in a country are a precursor to ethnic cleansing. Pointing to the nuremberg laws wikipedia page doesn't really constitute an argument. There is something here that you think is obviously bad about this law/register, but that you haven't told me. Something that makes you connect the dot between a list of people and the Nuremberg laws. Is the problem that the register contains ethnic/religious info (if it does?)? I agree that's nothing that necessarily belongs in a register. Also of course it can't exclude/include based on traits such as ethnicity/religion. It needs to be a register of everyone.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  You can't show up with thugs and take something you don't know exists. Sure you could go door to door looking for whatever your after (be that people or property) but that scales inefficiently and the false positive rate will be so high it will probably provoke a revolt. In practice registration is a necessary precursor to the government showing up and taking something unless the government can get people's neighbors to rat on each other (good luck with that). Governments have killed a lot of people and stolen a lot of property over the years. People are justified in being very weary of the government knowing who they are and what they have. The first 20yr of the USSR are probably a better point of comparison than the holocaust but whatever.
- thawaway1837 7y ago
  India also has a Census. The NCR is not a Census but a miserable ploy to divide people on the basis of religion and disenfranchise minorities. I say this as someone who is a Hindu and is frankly disgusted with this authoritarian government using religion to solely empower themselves. They’ve learnt the colonial British tricks well.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    > The NCR is not a Census but a miserable ploy to divide people on the basis of religion and disenfranchise minorities That is a much better explanation. That's an ethnic/religious register not merely an register of people in a country.
  - sbmthakur 7y ago
    What's with the religion in NRC? The last I checked the process was religion-agnostic. Lot of Hindus and Muslims were left out in the final list. Doesn't look like a ploy to divide people.
    - pkphilip 7y ago
      This is an exact tweet by Amit Shah: "We will ensure implementation of NRC in the entire country. We will remove every single infiltrator from the country, except Buddha, Hindus and Sikhs: Shri @AmitShah #NaMoForNewIndia"
      - sbmthakur 7y ago
        Tweets and real life are not always in sync. No other state has anything equivalent to Assam Accord.
        pkphilip 7y ago
        But that is precisely the plan. BJP has made it clear that they will want NRC implemented nation wide. From less than a week ago: Amit Shah reiterates that NRC will be implemented nationwide: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/govt-will-implement-nrc-countrywide-says-amit-shah/story-OLXbyqcNaRK4Cw9p3D2SgL.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/govt-will-implemen... UP and Haryana have stated that they are going to implement NRC. NRC in Haryana: https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/we-will-implement-nrc-in-haryana-as-well-manohar-lal-khattar-1599442-2019-09-15 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/we-will-implement-nrc-... NRC in UP: https://www.news18.com/news/politics/up-can-look-at-rolling-out-nrc-in-phases-after-khattar-adityanath-bats-for-crackdown-on-outsiders-2310151.html https://www.news18.com/news/politics/up-can-look-at-rolling-...
- l8again 7y ago
  >> I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers This is anything but a normal registry. NRC (National Register of Citizens) effectively strips about 2 million people of their nationality in the north-eastern state of Assam [1]. Even the ones who have lived their entire lives are put on the NRC list if they can't prove their ancestors (not just them) didn't come to the state prior to March 24, 1971. In most cases, they are asked to produce birth certificates of their parents [2]. They have a large poor and uneducated population that won't have birth certificates. In fact, birth certificates weren't commonly issued in India for decades post-independence. And when they realized that it's not just the Muslims that will be impacted by this, Modi introduced Citizenship Amendment Bill [2] that openly declares to grant Indian nationality to anyone who is persecuted in a nearby country — except if they're Muslim. It is in this context that the detention centers are being built [2]. They are not even pretending anymore - xenophobia is the only excuse. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-49520593 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-49520593 [2] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721188838/millions-in-india-face-uncertain-future-after-being-left-off-citizenship-list https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721188838/millions-in-india-f...
  - sbmthakur 7y ago
    Citizenship bill was introduced long before NRC's final list was out.
    - l8again 7y ago
      NRC had already been introduced. The final list was out later. Doesn't change anything about the point being made.
      - sbmthakur 7y ago
        Citizenship bill was first introduced in 2016. And the final NRC list was out in 2019. How would the Government know three years in advance that a large number of people from one particular religion will be out from the list?

by kamaal 7y ago

alkonaut 7y ago

I'm familiar with the holocaust. I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers, much less to the holocaust. My question was: isn't registries of people normal in most countries? There must be something about these registries that is bad, in the way they are created or (ab)used.

kamaal 7y ago
>>I'm familiar with the holocaust. Doesn't look like it. >>I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers, much less to the holocaust. Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws On April 12, 1933, the German government announced plans to conduct a long-delayed national census.[2]:54 The project was particularly important to the Nazis as a mechanism for the identification of Jews, Gypsies, and other ethnic groups deemed undesirable by the regime. Dehomag offered to assist the German government in its task of ethnic identification, concentrating upon the 41 million residents of Prussia.[2]:55 This activity was not only countenanced by Thomas Watson and IBM in America, Black argues, but was actively encouraged and financially supported, with Watson himself traveling to Germany in October 1933 and the company ramping up its investment in its German subsidiary from 400,000 to 7,000,000 Reichsmark—about $1 million.[2]:60 This injection of American capital allowed Dehomag to purchase land in Berlin and to construct IBM's first factory in Germany, Black charges, thereby "tooling up for what it correctly saw as a massive financial relationship with the Hitler regime".[2]:60 They even bought in state of the art technology of the day to track all those people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Also... Holocaust didn't start at the concentration camps. It started way earlier. It's not easy to convince ordinary good people like you to support gassing millions of people. The Nazis had to first build a case(propaganda, brainwashing, racial pride, internal enemies, traitors etc etc kind of trash), then the filters(list(registers) of people whom to gas), processes, logistics and infrastructure to execute a project of that horrific scale. In this case there is an explicit intent in the form of citizenship amendment bill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_Amendment_Bill_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_Amendment_Bill_201... and then nationwide NRC and camps as to what should be done. And the whole surrounding social case of lynchings and pogroms.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  > > I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers, much less to the holocaust. > Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws You still not argued why registers of people in a country are a precursor to ethnic cleansing. Pointing to the nuremberg laws wikipedia page doesn't really constitute an argument. There is something here that you think is obviously bad about this law/register, but that you haven't told me. Something that makes you connect the dot between a list of people and the Nuremberg laws. Is the problem that the register contains ethnic/religious info (if it does?)? I agree that's nothing that necessarily belongs in a register. Also of course it can't exclude/include based on traits such as ethnicity/religion. It needs to be a register of everyone.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
You can't show up with thugs and take something you don't know exists. Sure you could go door to door looking for whatever your after (be that people or property) but that scales inefficiently and the false positive rate will be so high it will probably provoke a revolt. In practice registration is a necessary precursor to the government showing up and taking something unless the government can get people's neighbors to rat on each other (good luck with that). Governments have killed a lot of people and stolen a lot of property over the years. People are justified in being very weary of the government knowing who they are and what they have. The first 20yr of the USSR are probably a better point of comparison than the holocaust but whatever.
thawaway1837 7y ago
India also has a Census. The NCR is not a Census but a miserable ploy to divide people on the basis of religion and disenfranchise minorities. I say this as someone who is a Hindu and is frankly disgusted with this authoritarian government using religion to solely empower themselves. They’ve learnt the colonial British tricks well.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  > The NCR is not a Census but a miserable ploy to divide people on the basis of religion and disenfranchise minorities That is a much better explanation. That's an ethnic/religious register not merely an register of people in a country.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  What's with the religion in NRC? The last I checked the process was religion-agnostic. Lot of Hindus and Muslims were left out in the final list. Doesn't look like a ploy to divide people.
  - pkphilip 7y ago
    This is an exact tweet by Amit Shah: "We will ensure implementation of NRC in the entire country. We will remove every single infiltrator from the country, except Buddha, Hindus and Sikhs: Shri @AmitShah #NaMoForNewIndia"
    - sbmthakur 7y ago
      Tweets and real life are not always in sync. No other state has anything equivalent to Assam Accord.
      - pkphilip 7y ago
        But that is precisely the plan. BJP has made it clear that they will want NRC implemented nation wide. From less than a week ago: Amit Shah reiterates that NRC will be implemented nationwide: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/govt-will-implement-nrc-countrywide-says-amit-shah/story-OLXbyqcNaRK4Cw9p3D2SgL.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/govt-will-implemen... UP and Haryana have stated that they are going to implement NRC. NRC in Haryana: https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/we-will-implement-nrc-in-haryana-as-well-manohar-lal-khattar-1599442-2019-09-15 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/we-will-implement-nrc-... NRC in UP: https://www.news18.com/news/politics/up-can-look-at-rolling-out-nrc-in-phases-after-khattar-adityanath-bats-for-crackdown-on-outsiders-2310151.html https://www.news18.com/news/politics/up-can-look-at-rolling-...
l8again 7y ago
>> I'm not following how normal (census, social security etc) government people registries are connected to the detention centers This is anything but a normal registry. NRC (National Register of Citizens) effectively strips about 2 million people of their nationality in the north-eastern state of Assam [1]. Even the ones who have lived their entire lives are put on the NRC list if they can't prove their ancestors (not just them) didn't come to the state prior to March 24, 1971. In most cases, they are asked to produce birth certificates of their parents [2]. They have a large poor and uneducated population that won't have birth certificates. In fact, birth certificates weren't commonly issued in India for decades post-independence. And when they realized that it's not just the Muslims that will be impacted by this, Modi introduced Citizenship Amendment Bill [2] that openly declares to grant Indian nationality to anyone who is persecuted in a nearby country — except if they're Muslim. It is in this context that the detention centers are being built [2]. They are not even pretending anymore - xenophobia is the only excuse. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-49520593 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-49520593 [2] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721188838/millions-in-india-face-uncertain-future-after-being-left-off-citizenship-list https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/721188838/millions-in-india-f...
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  Citizenship bill was introduced long before NRC's final list was out.
  - l8again 7y ago
    NRC had already been introduced. The final list was out later. Doesn't change anything about the point being made.
    - sbmthakur 7y ago
      Citizenship bill was first introduced in 2016. And the final NRC list was out in 2019. How would the Government know three years in advance that a large number of people from one particular religion will be out from the list?