6 ms·

There is another large part of the community that wants no part in the community as a result of events like this. I guess we will end up with two communities on

There is another large part of the community that wants no part in the community as a result of events like this. I guess we will end up with two communities one focused on software the other focused on social justice (wokeware). It looks like the social justice community will get the code and trademarks. Fortunately thanks to RMS the code is available to fork. I guess things aren't organised yet but I and others I have spoken to IRL have already stopped interacting with certain projects. I was wondering if some of the community's thought leaders might jump ship - but I guess they will be purged anyway so that should help! EDIT: Would any downvoters care to comment on why they think this won't happen? Do they think we will continue to participate against our will...

stelonix 7y ago
Interesting, I've been thinking about this myself: whether a new foundation or movement will be created around RMS and without the stigmas that allow people to be "cancelled" over their thoughts or opinions. I have to say, the FSF without RMS simply makes no sense. It's one of those institutions where more than 51% of its effectiveness came from a single person. I firmly believe a "fork" for the FSF is coming soon.
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  We are not alone. It takes a brave person to put their head above the parapet in the current climate.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  it already happened. As usual, not trying to be prejudicial here, it happened in the U.S. where different 501(c)(3) formed to attract donation capital, but that actually have been an enemy of large part of the FSF community. There can't be one strong FSF they want many small feuds, it's like greenwashing, open washing is happening, which, BTW, "misses the point of free software". Look at what happened to Eben Moglen, a person that nobody can describe as harsh, impolite, unempathetic, creepy or whatever BS they are throwing now at RMS. And still in 2017 he was declared "no longer a friend of the free software community" by mjg59. Why? Because Moglen expressed his lawyer opinion in a way that Garret did not like. Garret works at Google, Moglen still offers pro bono legal representation at the Software Freedom Law Center, which he founded. It's not hard to take parts for me.
  - flatb 7y ago
    > harsh, impolite, unempathetic, creepy or whatever BS they are throwing now at RMS. He has been accused, by several independent parties, of, among other things: -Asking female coworkers to lay down topless on a mattress in his office. -Threatening a colleague to kill himself if he/she didn't go on a date with him. -Posting up signs in his workplace along the lines of "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)". Do you think that reprieving someone for threatening a colleague to kill yourself if they don't give in to your romantic/sexual advances is "throwing BS"? It's an honest question.
    - concordDance 7y ago
      Can I have a reliable source on the suicide threat? In particular something indicating it was genuine rather than jocular.
      - flatb 7y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d59r46/richard_stallman_resigns_from_mit_over_epstein/f0kpd5w/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d59r46/richard... From someone who worked at MIT.
        hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
        I don't see any reliable source there. Are some of those profiles verified? I also didn't see any reference to suicide.
        concordDance 7y ago
        I see no dates, names, details or basically anything of substance relating to the suicide threat story. It seems to just be one of those sourceless rumours that get passed around as gospel. Note in particular that the commentator does not say they saw this or even that someone who saw it told them. You're just hearing a rumour this person heard at MIT.
  - andrekandre 7y ago
- gwd 7y ago
  > I have to say, the FSF without RMS simply makes no sense. It's one of those institutions where more than 51% of its effectiveness came from a single person. If that's true, then Stallman has completely failed as a leader. There are 7 billion people in the world; if after 40 years there is nobody of similar caliber at the FSF, it is because he has either not attracted them, not trained them, or has driven them away. (Perhaps by asking them on a date or handing them a card that said "tender embraces" the very first time he met them.) I sincerely hope that there will be people in the FSF that can make it more robust, and set it up for long-term success.
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > If that's true, then Stallman has completely failed as a leader He's been under constant attack for the past 40 years. Nobody wants to be friend with the smart friend who's also unpopular. And that's what he failed, he trusted people would be decent. They are not.
    - johnny22 7y ago
      i didn't wanna be his friend after meeting him personally. Nothing to do with him being unpopular, since i I (at the time) was an unpopular nerd too.
  - craigsmansion 7y ago
    > I sincerely hope that there will be people in the FSF There are: https://www.fsfla.org/%7Elxoliva/ https://www.fsfla.org/%7Elxoliva/ But apart from being next in line, he's also next in line: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1174371580547223553 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1174371580547223553
marijn 7y ago
The assumption that those who care about treating others decently can not at the same time be good technologists speaks volumes.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  I still have to testimony an useful contribution (or proof of donation) from those attacking open source projects for not using gender neutral pronouns. I'm not young anymore, in my 40s, but I have hope that in the next 40 years some of them will stop being a dick and do actual work. It's never too late to change.
  - underwater 7y ago
    You're hoping that the next generation will see the light and adjust their behaviour to your expectations? It ain't gonna happen. This is the struggle of every single generation.
  - flatb 7y ago
    Can you detail, without strawmen or anecdotes, the thought process by which you equate asking to use gender neutral pronouns, or discussing the possibility of it, with "attacks"?
    - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
      Its not asking though. Its screaming, threatening and drumming people out of their jobs if they don't comply. I say this as someone that uses gender neutral pronouns etc.
      - homonculus1 7y ago
        You're experiencing the motte and bailey in action, my friend. "It's only asking people to be nice, nothing more!"
      - apocolyps6 7y ago
        I'm out of the loop. Was someone fired over this?

stelonix 7y ago

Interesting, I've been thinking about this myself: whether a new foundation or movement will be created around RMS and without the stigmas that allow people to be "cancelled" over their thoughts or opinions. I have to say, the FSF without RMS simply makes no sense. It's one of those institutions where more than 51% of its effectiveness came from a single person. I firmly believe a "fork" for the FSF is coming soon.

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
We are not alone. It takes a brave person to put their head above the parapet in the current climate.
lostjohnny 7y ago
it already happened. As usual, not trying to be prejudicial here, it happened in the U.S. where different 501(c)(3) formed to attract donation capital, but that actually have been an enemy of large part of the FSF community. There can't be one strong FSF they want many small feuds, it's like greenwashing, open washing is happening, which, BTW, "misses the point of free software". Look at what happened to Eben Moglen, a person that nobody can describe as harsh, impolite, unempathetic, creepy or whatever BS they are throwing now at RMS. And still in 2017 he was declared "no longer a friend of the free software community" by mjg59. Why? Because Moglen expressed his lawyer opinion in a way that Garret did not like. Garret works at Google, Moglen still offers pro bono legal representation at the Software Freedom Law Center, which he founded. It's not hard to take parts for me.
- flatb 7y ago
  > harsh, impolite, unempathetic, creepy or whatever BS they are throwing now at RMS. He has been accused, by several independent parties, of, among other things: -Asking female coworkers to lay down topless on a mattress in his office. -Threatening a colleague to kill himself if he/she didn't go on a date with him. -Posting up signs in his workplace along the lines of "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)". Do you think that reprieving someone for threatening a colleague to kill yourself if they don't give in to your romantic/sexual advances is "throwing BS"? It's an honest question.
  - concordDance 7y ago
    Can I have a reliable source on the suicide threat? In particular something indicating it was genuine rather than jocular.
    - flatb 7y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d59r46/richard_stallman_resigns_from_mit_over_epstein/f0kpd5w/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/d59r46/richard... From someone who worked at MIT.
      - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
        I don't see any reliable source there. Are some of those profiles verified? I also didn't see any reference to suicide.
      - concordDance 7y ago
        I see no dates, names, details or basically anything of substance relating to the suicide threat story. It seems to just be one of those sourceless rumours that get passed around as gospel. Note in particular that the commentator does not say they saw this or even that someone who saw it told them. You're just hearing a rumour this person heard at MIT.
- andrekandre 7y ago
gwd 7y ago
> I have to say, the FSF without RMS simply makes no sense. It's one of those institutions where more than 51% of its effectiveness came from a single person. If that's true, then Stallman has completely failed as a leader. There are 7 billion people in the world; if after 40 years there is nobody of similar caliber at the FSF, it is because he has either not attracted them, not trained them, or has driven them away. (Perhaps by asking them on a date or handing them a card that said "tender embraces" the very first time he met them.) I sincerely hope that there will be people in the FSF that can make it more robust, and set it up for long-term success.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > If that's true, then Stallman has completely failed as a leader He's been under constant attack for the past 40 years. Nobody wants to be friend with the smart friend who's also unpopular. And that's what he failed, he trusted people would be decent. They are not.
  - johnny22 7y ago
    i didn't wanna be his friend after meeting him personally. Nothing to do with him being unpopular, since i I (at the time) was an unpopular nerd too.
- craigsmansion 7y ago
  > I sincerely hope that there will be people in the FSF There are: https://www.fsfla.org/%7Elxoliva/ https://www.fsfla.org/%7Elxoliva/ But apart from being next in line, he's also next in line: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1174371580547223553 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1174371580547223553

marijn 7y ago

The assumption that those who care about treating others decently can not at the same time be good technologists speaks volumes.

lostjohnny 7y ago
I still have to testimony an useful contribution (or proof of donation) from those attacking open source projects for not using gender neutral pronouns. I'm not young anymore, in my 40s, but I have hope that in the next 40 years some of them will stop being a dick and do actual work. It's never too late to change.
- underwater 7y ago
  You're hoping that the next generation will see the light and adjust their behaviour to your expectations? It ain't gonna happen. This is the struggle of every single generation.
- flatb 7y ago
  Can you detail, without strawmen or anecdotes, the thought process by which you equate asking to use gender neutral pronouns, or discussing the possibility of it, with "attacks"?
  - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
    Its not asking though. Its screaming, threatening and drumming people out of their jobs if they don't comply. I say this as someone that uses gender neutral pronouns etc.
    - homonculus1 7y ago
      You're experiencing the motte and bailey in action, my friend. "It's only asking people to be nice, nothing more!"
    - apocolyps6 7y ago
      I'm out of the loop. Was someone fired over this?