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What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentia

What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentially slaves. People with the notion that free will is some sort of absolute confuse the heck out of me. I guess sibling post is right, it's just an issue of fundamental worldview being different.

colechristensen 7y ago
The government banning tobacco from sale is the same sort of free-will exercise by humans for humans as is me banning tobacco from my own body, just on different levels. The government can just as well have "addiction" problems with things that are bad for the population which are supported by the population. The difference isn't free-will or not, it is only the level on which it is applied. I prefer personal free will to collective free will whenever it is possible and reasonable. The purpose of government is to do things we can't do for ourselves. I can decide whether or not to use a substance which might be addictive or to abstain from it forever. The government can do that too but I really don't think they need to. They need to make sure that those kinds of products are sold pure and as expected, that there is accurate information about their usage and effects available, and that people selling them do not mislead or manipulatively hook people, but ultimately I would rather a responsible individual make decisions than a collective.
- Faark 7y ago
  Notably absent in your list is to incentivize the "right" behavior, especially when society will have to pay for it down the line via social safety nets. Hopefully less of an issue with vaping.
  - colechristensen 7y ago
    Correct, I do not want the government to be a moral guide. I want the government to promote what is true, not what is right.
- fcarraldo 7y ago
  I can’t get behind this argument when we live in an economy driven by a massive industry of personalized marketing and advertising. You espouse free will as if it’s some absolute, but studies show that human behavior is primarily the product of environment and is, to an extent, easy to predict the likelihood of someone becoming a smoker based on their age, race, income and zip code. How can we justify giving mega corporations carte blanche to market poisonous and addictive substance to our own friends, family and neighbors without asking that the government step in to prevent it?
  - colechristensen 7y ago
    You're talking about marketing, I'm talking about availability of products. I don't think anybody is going around discussing the philosophy of government because they're concerned that they aren't free enough to be advertised to. There is a marked difference between governments interfering with an individual's freedom to act on themselves and interfering with an individual's freedom to manipulate the actions of others. >giving mega corporations carte blanche to market poisonous and addictive substance They absolutely do not have this. Tobacco ads are banned from TV and Radio in the US, for example. Wouldn't exactly call that a blank check. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Cigarette_Smoking_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Cigarette_Smokin...
    - fcarraldo 7y ago
      They absolutely do have this. Juul has spent millions marketing on the internet and social media, and recently was advertising on TV until the networks began to refuse ads _within the last week_. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/business/juul-vaping-ads-cbs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/business/juul-vaping-ads-...
  - andrepd 7y ago
    Just want to say you've summed up the entirety of the way I think about "buyer freedom" in our advertisement infested world.
- RaceWon 7y ago
  Banning plants has always been highly effective... it worked for weed, blow and of course heron. Highly effective ;)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
cwkoss 7y ago
If addicts had access to a supply of affordable regulated clean consistent heroin 95%+ of the harms of addiction would be mitigated. Heroin isn't a good habit, but it's surprisingly well tolerated by the human body and the majority of evils come from prohibition itself.
JetSpiegel 7y ago
> What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentially slaves. Way ahead of you... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/11/purdue-pharma-opioids-settlement-sackler-family https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/11/purdue-pharm... $12B to make the cops go away. The adult version of Carlos the Jackal.

colechristensen 7y ago

The government banning tobacco from sale is the same sort of free-will exercise by humans for humans as is me banning tobacco from my own body, just on different levels. The government can just as well have "addiction" problems with things that are bad for the population which are supported by the population. The difference isn't free-will or not, it is only the level on which it is applied. I prefer personal free will to collective free will whenever it is possible and reasonable. The purpose of government is to do things we can't do for ourselves. I can decide whether or not to use a substance which might be addictive or to abstain from it forever. The government can do that too but I really don't think they need to. They need to make sure that those kinds of products are sold pure and as expected, that there is accurate information about their usage and effects available, and that people selling them do not mislead or manipulatively hook people, but ultimately I would rather a responsible individual make decisions than a collective.

Faark 7y ago
Notably absent in your list is to incentivize the "right" behavior, especially when society will have to pay for it down the line via social safety nets. Hopefully less of an issue with vaping.
- colechristensen 7y ago
  Correct, I do not want the government to be a moral guide. I want the government to promote what is true, not what is right.
fcarraldo 7y ago
I can’t get behind this argument when we live in an economy driven by a massive industry of personalized marketing and advertising. You espouse free will as if it’s some absolute, but studies show that human behavior is primarily the product of environment and is, to an extent, easy to predict the likelihood of someone becoming a smoker based on their age, race, income and zip code. How can we justify giving mega corporations carte blanche to market poisonous and addictive substance to our own friends, family and neighbors without asking that the government step in to prevent it?
- colechristensen 7y ago
  You're talking about marketing, I'm talking about availability of products. I don't think anybody is going around discussing the philosophy of government because they're concerned that they aren't free enough to be advertised to. There is a marked difference between governments interfering with an individual's freedom to act on themselves and interfering with an individual's freedom to manipulate the actions of others. >giving mega corporations carte blanche to market poisonous and addictive substance They absolutely do not have this. Tobacco ads are banned from TV and Radio in the US, for example. Wouldn't exactly call that a blank check. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Cigarette_Smoking_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Cigarette_Smokin...
  - fcarraldo 7y ago
    They absolutely do have this. Juul has spent millions marketing on the internet and social media, and recently was advertising on TV until the networks began to refuse ads _within the last week_. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/business/juul-vaping-ads-cbs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/business/juul-vaping-ads-...
- andrepd 7y ago
  Just want to say you've summed up the entirety of the way I think about "buyer freedom" in our advertisement infested world.
RaceWon 7y ago
Banning plants has always been highly effective... it worked for weed, blow and of course heron. Highly effective ;)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

cwkoss 7y ago

If addicts had access to a supply of affordable regulated clean consistent heroin 95%+ of the harms of addiction would be mitigated. Heroin isn't a good habit, but it's surprisingly well tolerated by the human body and the majority of evils come from prohibition itself.

JetSpiegel 7y ago

> What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentially slaves. Way ahead of you... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/11/purdue-pharma-opioids-settlement-sackler-family https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/11/purdue-pharm... $12B to make the cops go away. The adult version of Carlos the Jackal.