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Then why are Amazon and Microsoft counted among the 4 surveillance companies the OP? Also it is arguable if behavioral targeting meaningful increases revenue o

Then why are Amazon and Microsoft counted among the 4 surveillance companies the OP? Also it is arguable if behavioral targeting meaningful increases revenue over day, keyword targeting. Are there any studies?

JohnFen 7y ago
> Then why are Amazon and Microsoft counted among the 4 surveillance companies the OP? Perhaps because they both have surveillance as part of their business models? > Also it is arguable if behavioral targeting meaningful increases revenue over day, keyword targeting. I never made any comment about the revenue impact of various forms of advertising. I was merely stating the plain fact that advertising can be done without spying on people, and an ad company that works this way would not count as a "surveillance company".
- cromwellian 7y ago
  > Perhaps because they both have surveillance as part of their business models? The majority of Microsoft and Amazon's revenue doesn't come from advertising. That was my point about Apple, which is, although their primary market is HW, they are getting into services, and they did have iAds, and they are exploring ads on the App Store. Again, in MS's revenue breakdown, advertising is a rounding error. And Amazon purchaser of ads.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > The majority of Microsoft and Amazon's revenue doesn't come from advertising. I was talking about surveillance, not advertising specifically. Surveillance is embedded deeply into both company's business models even if we ignore the advertising side of their businesses. Advertising and surveillance are two different things, and each can exist without the other.
    - cromwellian 7y ago
      Why is surveillance embedded into MS's business model? For the vast majority of Microsoft's existence, their products were sold even without a network connection. Microsoft's business model is not based on data collection about users. Here's a breakdown from their last filing: $15.0 billion revenues, 16.0% of the total, from the D&C Licensing segment. $10.2 billion revenues, 10.9% of the total, from the Computing and Gaming Hardware segment. $7.5 billion revenues, 8.0% of the total, from the Phone Hardware segment. $8.8 billion revenues, 9.4% of the total, from the D&C Other segment. $41.0 billion revenues, 43.9% of the total, from the Commercial Licensing segment. $10.8 billion revenues, 11.6% of the total, from the Commercial Other segment. The vast majority of their revenues, that is, their primary business model, is licensing Windows and Office, running Azure, selling XBox. Bing, and other online services that rely on "surveillance" are not a major part of their bottom line. If you're trying to claim they observe their customers and use it to optimize their products, e.g. how Amazon displays results to you when you search for something, well, Apple does that too. They track your App Store installs, i.e. Surveil them, and use it to for what to show in the App Store. As they shift to services, this behavior will only increase. I mean, you can claim Google and Facebook are primarily based on data, but Microsoft is quite obviously, a company whose entire history is mostly consumer licensed OS, and enterprise/small business software, and most of their products ran offline. I don't have any love for Microsoft, but you seem to be deliberately trying to make their business model about data, and it currently, is not.
      - pacala 7y ago
        True. Microsoft used to be a company built around building and selling software. I used to respect that company. Since Windows 10 telemetry, plus targeted ads as part of the core OS, plus Cortana, the business model has changed for the worse. Capitalism delivers the best targeted ads systems money can buy. Targeted ads systems are more efficient if they are measuring the effect of each ad on each individual, short and long term. The best way to measure such effects is by implementing 24/7 surveillance of every human, in cyberspace and real life. While Microsoft may be playing catch-up with Google and Facebook, it is firmly set to build a surveillance network of its own, with the first elements already here.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Then why are Amazon and Microsoft counted among the 4 surveillance companies the OP? Perhaps because they both have surveillance as part of their business models? > Also it is arguable if behavioral targeting meaningful increases revenue over day, keyword targeting. I never made any comment about the revenue impact of various forms of advertising. I was merely stating the plain fact that advertising can be done without spying on people, and an ad company that works this way would not count as a "surveillance company".

cromwellian 7y ago
> Perhaps because they both have surveillance as part of their business models? The majority of Microsoft and Amazon's revenue doesn't come from advertising. That was my point about Apple, which is, although their primary market is HW, they are getting into services, and they did have iAds, and they are exploring ads on the App Store. Again, in MS's revenue breakdown, advertising is a rounding error. And Amazon purchaser of ads.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > The majority of Microsoft and Amazon's revenue doesn't come from advertising. I was talking about surveillance, not advertising specifically. Surveillance is embedded deeply into both company's business models even if we ignore the advertising side of their businesses. Advertising and surveillance are two different things, and each can exist without the other.
  - cromwellian 7y ago
    Why is surveillance embedded into MS's business model? For the vast majority of Microsoft's existence, their products were sold even without a network connection. Microsoft's business model is not based on data collection about users. Here's a breakdown from their last filing: $15.0 billion revenues, 16.0% of the total, from the D&C Licensing segment. $10.2 billion revenues, 10.9% of the total, from the Computing and Gaming Hardware segment. $7.5 billion revenues, 8.0% of the total, from the Phone Hardware segment. $8.8 billion revenues, 9.4% of the total, from the D&C Other segment. $41.0 billion revenues, 43.9% of the total, from the Commercial Licensing segment. $10.8 billion revenues, 11.6% of the total, from the Commercial Other segment. The vast majority of their revenues, that is, their primary business model, is licensing Windows and Office, running Azure, selling XBox. Bing, and other online services that rely on "surveillance" are not a major part of their bottom line. If you're trying to claim they observe their customers and use it to optimize their products, e.g. how Amazon displays results to you when you search for something, well, Apple does that too. They track your App Store installs, i.e. Surveil them, and use it to for what to show in the App Store. As they shift to services, this behavior will only increase. I mean, you can claim Google and Facebook are primarily based on data, but Microsoft is quite obviously, a company whose entire history is mostly consumer licensed OS, and enterprise/small business software, and most of their products ran offline. I don't have any love for Microsoft, but you seem to be deliberately trying to make their business model about data, and it currently, is not.
    - pacala 7y ago
      True. Microsoft used to be a company built around building and selling software. I used to respect that company. Since Windows 10 telemetry, plus targeted ads as part of the core OS, plus Cortana, the business model has changed for the worse. Capitalism delivers the best targeted ads systems money can buy. Targeted ads systems are more efficient if they are measuring the effect of each ad on each individual, short and long term. The best way to measure such effects is by implementing 24/7 surveillance of every human, in cyberspace and real life. While Microsoft may be playing catch-up with Google and Facebook, it is firmly set to build a surveillance network of its own, with the first elements already here.