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One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago a

One thing that gets lost in Juul and vaping supporters is just how bad nicotine addiction is for your personal life. I recently quit nicotine a few months ago and it made a big difference for me. Nicotine withdrawal kicks in very quick which is why smokers take constant breaks. The anxiety, the grumpiness, irritability and anger you feel as a smoker when you are without nicotine will piss off your partner, make you seem difficult to friends and colleagues and generally just color your world in a dark way. Juul pods helped me stop smoking for a short period of time but I became an order of magnitude more hooked on nicotine. I work from home and couldn't go more than 15 minutes without sucking on that stupid device. I quit smoking cold turkey 90 days and it's made a dramatic difference to my mood. I no longer worry about being socially outcast or being judged for blowing vape clouds.

lsniddy 7y ago
i was a tobacco user for roughly ten years, equivalent of 2-5 cigarrettes a day max. The month i picked up a juul that amount effectively 10x'ed. I feel bad for all these kids who are going to leave high school with a stronger nicotine tolerance and dependence than some 40 year chain smokers.
- draw_down 7y ago
  This is why I never tried it. I bet I would like it, a lot. And with cigarettes you have to go outside, you smell bad, etc., these things have none of those problems. It just looks very easy to get hooked on them.
  - lsniddy 7y ago
    There's no negative feedback loop to vaping, its like if you could drink with no hangovers.
    - behringer 7y ago
      *that we know about. There's a lot of people worried about long term effects and possibly even brain damage.
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        Via what mechanism would vaping nicotine cause brain damage that isn't caused by cigarettes? The glycol?
        behringer 7y ago
        That's what further research would provide.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
dmix 7y ago
Juul seems to have higher nicotine content than most of the traditional vaping juices. Even the new reusable nicotine salt devices. It's also pretty gross and strong by comparison IMO. But I guess it's for people who just stopped smoking cigarettes which is similarly harsh whenever I try them now.
- thatcat 7y ago
  The nicotine inhalation flux would be dependant on the coil used and amount of current, maybe they reduced the heating rate to reduce amount of filler in liquid required.
- KingMachiavelli 7y ago
  It's a nicotine salt so it's stronger but less harsh on your throught. A 50mgml nicotine salt concentration ends up being as 'strong' as ~28mg/ml nicotine freebase (since the salt makes up ~45% of the molar weight) but has the throat hit of like a 12mg/ml nicotine freebase. The volume held in the device & volume per 'puff' is also a lot less hence the smaller devices.
  - ozzmotik 7y ago
    just for what it's worth, i personally get nicotine salt juices for use with my sub ohm tank. i never really got the appeal of those small vape pen style ones like the ego or the modern wave of juuls. but i have heard some people say you can't do nicotine salt ones or shouldn't with a sub ohm vaporizer. i still don't see why. the reduction of throat hit with a large delivery of vapor seems to be the ideal way to consume it for me
- Gracana 7y ago
  Juul pods are 3 and 5% where I live. That's typical for vape juice. Are they different elsewhere?
  - james-mcelwain 7y ago
    5% is not typical. The highest strength vape juice sold in most places is around 24mg/mL or 2.4%. Most "old-school" vape users smoke something more like 12mg.
KingMachiavelli 7y ago
I've never been addicted to tobacco but I used to vape heavily in HS & currently on/off (my friend brings his vape(s) over, etc). I've never experienced anything to the extent you describe. I can definiently feel a desire, in that, I would rather be vaping vs not but not the the point that I've actually filled up any of my personal vapes recenctly or bought a new device. It's well known that the other chemicals in tobacco act as MAIOs increasing the effect of nicotine which makes it more habbit forming - and I believe that extends to even after you switch to a nicotine replacement program. Really, the most annoying thing is that tobaccoo is still legal are are both nicotine + cancer. At least vaping/nicotine alone won't kill you so it's strange that it gets more attention.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Enginerrrd 7y ago
  Nicotine is itself a carcinogen. But in general, smokeless tobacco products (including vaping) are much less damaging to your health than smoking.
  - brianwawok 7y ago
    Do we know the 30 year effects of say being a heavy Juul user? It's hard to compare damage of something that has been out for 100s of years vs something that has only been out for a few years.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I don't think nicotine has been shown to be carcinogenic in humans, although there's plenty of other bad things it does.
    - joncrane 7y ago
      Nicotine stimulates Growth Hormone release and GH is linked to some cancers. For sure many tumors respond much more intensely to GH than normal tissue. Much in the same way estrogen makes some breast cancers grow faster. So it has a carcinogenic effect, and once the cancer starts, nicotine turbocharges it. (Depending on the cancer, of course).
verylittlemeat 7y ago
I switched to nicotine gum and it was just as bad. When i tried to quit gum I would wake up every hour, sometimes sweating. I was building up a chewing tolerance way beyond what i had with cigarettes. Nicotine is really powerful stuff. I believe there's no free lunch with quitting. Eventually you will take a quality of life hit white quitting that almost directly mirrors how much relief it gave you to get through the day.
- blattimwind 7y ago
  > Nicotine is really powerful stuff. I believe there's no free lunch with quitting. The by far best way is to just never start. In Germany we made a lot of very good progress towards that (lowering % of young people getting hooked on smoking), which seems to have been completely upended by vaping.
earlz 7y ago
I think the key with vaping (not necessarily with Juul though due to market availability) is that it's very easy to decrease the dosage of nicotine without reducing the fixation amount. For traditional cigarette smoking you want a high amount of nicotine to fill that void (and also to get through the other side of other addictive substances in tobacco beyond nicotine) and to effectively "get hooked" on vaping instead, to the point that normal cigarettes are completely unattractive to you.. Afterwards, decreasing dosage with a vape is super easy, especially if done in a blind way, ie, buying two identical flavors at different dosages (your "normal" and the lower dose) and put them into two carts. Pick a random one each day to use. I've heard of people doing this all the way down to 3mg to get over the lowest dosage hump even. One has no nicotine, the other only has 3mg. Eventually the non-social fixation (ie, at your house alone) stops, and the social fixation (ie, outside of a bar, etc) is controllable with no nicotine... Then that's not even getting into the different ohm ratings etc that further control dosage without affecting the fixation of using the vape. edit: note I say "easy", but its not a short process.. If you try to go immediately from 48mg to 3mg you won't have a good time. It takes months for each step down
- cat199 7y ago
  and if you're using a tank system or filling your carts, you can mix your own dosage from 0% + something else. or just stay at 0%.
- danlugo92 7y ago
  My own experience FWIW: I had no problems going from half a pack a day to a 3mg liquid + half a pack a week.
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  Nicotine's method of action for addiction isn't commonly understood very well. It's extremely specific - nicotine works to make the things you do around the exposure more habitual. If it's slapping on a nicotine patch and going on a run, you're more likely to get into a habit of slapping on a patch and going on a run. If it's taking a break outside and puffing from a vaporizer, then it's simply taking a break and puffing from a vaporizer. That's largely why e-cigs are the most successful way to quit smoking tobacco products - it's the most similar habit to smoking cigarettes, so it slots into the existing highly-reinforced habits that smokers have. You drop a bunch of the random other chemicals that are present in cigarettes, and wind up reinforcing the replacement habit before dropping dosages and having a regular habit that's as easy to quit as, say, biting your fingernails.
colechristensen 7y ago
It comes down to personality and biochemistry, not everyone is that hooked on the stuff. If you ban everything that is addictive you end up doing a disservice to people who can handle the substance or item in question. Banning addictive substances because some people can't handle them goes against my philosophy of the purpose of government. Do we need some kind of super-citizen test where you have to prove your knowledge and responsibility for people to be able to be free to do/have/use the things they want? I don't want a nanny state that bans what it thinks is bad for me and prevents me from accessing things that I want because some people can't handle it. I was talking to some of my old farmer relatives a few months ago and one of them was telling stories about his dynamite license. It was a useful thing to have when interacting with the land and you could get a license and just go out and buy dynamite. This was maybe 50 years ago. That is the kind of world I want to live in, where people who can prove themselves can get any tool they want or need to manipulate their minds or the world around them. Not a world where a committee (or public pressure) can decide what I can't handle or what's too dangerous. I don't want to live in a world of padded walls.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  personally I'm with you, although I'll grant reasonable concessions (eg, not many citizens need surface-to-air missiles). the problem is ideological unfortunately. people simply don't share your definition of "freedom" or value it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- WaxProlix 7y ago
  What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentially slaves. People with the notion that free will is some sort of absolute confuse the heck out of me. I guess sibling post is right, it's just an issue of fundamental worldview being different.
  - 7y ago
sjg007 7y ago
You could do a taper basically.
dilap 7y ago
On the flip side, going out on breaks w/ people to smoke or vape can be a great social enhancement. Made at least one great friend this way. Also how my mom met my dad. Still trying to think up a good replacement for this...
- sbilstein 7y ago
  If you are trying to quit, which it sounds like you are not, you have to unlearn this aspect of smoking. Obviously as a smoker, I loved doing that! It's just not good for your health or happiness. I was especially worried whenever I was going back to the bar/restaurant/office wondering if I smell too much like cigarettes
  - girvo 7y ago
    > I was especially worried whenever I was going back to the bar/restaurant/office wondering if I smell too much like cigarettes As someone who quit cigarettes 5 years ago, but still chews 2mg gum (12 of them per day, about), you did for sure heh. Wasn't until I stopped smoking that I realised how bad it smelled. Also how good food tastes when I could taste stuff properly again!
  - dilap 7y ago
    I agree -- on balance, smoking is not worth it, at least not regularly. So I basically never smoke cigarettes anymore, and Juul only occasionally. Still, I miss it...
- RhodesianHunter 7y ago
  Those of us who don't smoke still find ways to socialize and meet people. Usually around a totally different drug (alcohol).
- dasKrokodil 7y ago
  At my previous job, I simply went out with the smokers sometimes, to get some, uh, 'fresh air'. Didn't really get any fresh air that way, but I did socialize with them just fine and it wasn't as weird as it might sound.
ashton314 7y ago
Congradulations, man. That's really hard and I'm glad you feel that it had made a difference in you life. I've helped a few people get on the path to stop smoking. It's hard. Most people I helped struggled massively. It's a big accomplishment. Hats off to you! Enjoy your newfound freedom. :)
anxman 7y ago
Congrats for quitting. I was also just like you. I would smoke maybe one analog a day but with Juul, I blitzed through a whole pod. I became 10x more addicted. Thankfully I have been tobacco free for over a year now.

lsniddy 7y ago

i was a tobacco user for roughly ten years, equivalent of 2-5 cigarrettes a day max. The month i picked up a juul that amount effectively 10x'ed. I feel bad for all these kids who are going to leave high school with a stronger nicotine tolerance and dependence than some 40 year chain smokers.

draw_down 7y ago
This is why I never tried it. I bet I would like it, a lot. And with cigarettes you have to go outside, you smell bad, etc., these things have none of those problems. It just looks very easy to get hooked on them.
- lsniddy 7y ago
  There's no negative feedback loop to vaping, its like if you could drink with no hangovers.
  - behringer 7y ago
    *that we know about. There's a lot of people worried about long term effects and possibly even brain damage.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      Via what mechanism would vaping nicotine cause brain damage that isn't caused by cigarettes? The glycol?
      - behringer 7y ago
        That's what further research would provide.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

dmix 7y ago

Juul seems to have higher nicotine content than most of the traditional vaping juices. Even the new reusable nicotine salt devices. It's also pretty gross and strong by comparison IMO. But I guess it's for people who just stopped smoking cigarettes which is similarly harsh whenever I try them now.

thatcat 7y ago
The nicotine inhalation flux would be dependant on the coil used and amount of current, maybe they reduced the heating rate to reduce amount of filler in liquid required.
KingMachiavelli 7y ago
It's a nicotine salt so it's stronger but less harsh on your throught. A 50mgml nicotine salt concentration ends up being as 'strong' as ~28mg/ml nicotine freebase (since the salt makes up ~45% of the molar weight) but has the throat hit of like a 12mg/ml nicotine freebase. The volume held in the device & volume per 'puff' is also a lot less hence the smaller devices.
- ozzmotik 7y ago
  just for what it's worth, i personally get nicotine salt juices for use with my sub ohm tank. i never really got the appeal of those small vape pen style ones like the ego or the modern wave of juuls. but i have heard some people say you can't do nicotine salt ones or shouldn't with a sub ohm vaporizer. i still don't see why. the reduction of throat hit with a large delivery of vapor seems to be the ideal way to consume it for me
Gracana 7y ago
Juul pods are 3 and 5% where I live. That's typical for vape juice. Are they different elsewhere?
- james-mcelwain 7y ago
  5% is not typical. The highest strength vape juice sold in most places is around 24mg/mL or 2.4%. Most "old-school" vape users smoke something more like 12mg.

KingMachiavelli 7y ago

I've never been addicted to tobacco but I used to vape heavily in HS & currently on/off (my friend brings his vape(s) over, etc). I've never experienced anything to the extent you describe. I can definiently feel a desire, in that, I would rather be vaping vs not but not the the point that I've actually filled up any of my personal vapes recenctly or bought a new device. It's well known that the other chemicals in tobacco act as MAIOs increasing the effect of nicotine which makes it more habbit forming - and I believe that extends to even after you switch to a nicotine replacement program. Really, the most annoying thing is that tobaccoo is still legal are are both nicotine + cancer. At least vaping/nicotine alone won't kill you so it's strange that it gets more attention.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Enginerrrd 7y ago
Nicotine is itself a carcinogen. But in general, smokeless tobacco products (including vaping) are much less damaging to your health than smoking.
- brianwawok 7y ago
  Do we know the 30 year effects of say being a heavy Juul user? It's hard to compare damage of something that has been out for 100s of years vs something that has only been out for a few years.
- kube-system 7y ago
  I don't think nicotine has been shown to be carcinogenic in humans, although there's plenty of other bad things it does.
  - joncrane 7y ago
    Nicotine stimulates Growth Hormone release and GH is linked to some cancers. For sure many tumors respond much more intensely to GH than normal tissue. Much in the same way estrogen makes some breast cancers grow faster. So it has a carcinogenic effect, and once the cancer starts, nicotine turbocharges it. (Depending on the cancer, of course).

verylittlemeat 7y ago

I switched to nicotine gum and it was just as bad. When i tried to quit gum I would wake up every hour, sometimes sweating. I was building up a chewing tolerance way beyond what i had with cigarettes. Nicotine is really powerful stuff. I believe there's no free lunch with quitting. Eventually you will take a quality of life hit white quitting that almost directly mirrors how much relief it gave you to get through the day.

blattimwind 7y ago
> Nicotine is really powerful stuff. I believe there's no free lunch with quitting. The by far best way is to just never start. In Germany we made a lot of very good progress towards that (lowering % of young people getting hooked on smoking), which seems to have been completely upended by vaping.

earlz 7y ago

I think the key with vaping (not necessarily with Juul though due to market availability) is that it's very easy to decrease the dosage of nicotine without reducing the fixation amount. For traditional cigarette smoking you want a high amount of nicotine to fill that void (and also to get through the other side of other addictive substances in tobacco beyond nicotine) and to effectively "get hooked" on vaping instead, to the point that normal cigarettes are completely unattractive to you.. Afterwards, decreasing dosage with a vape is super easy, especially if done in a blind way, ie, buying two identical flavors at different dosages (your "normal" and the lower dose) and put them into two carts. Pick a random one each day to use. I've heard of people doing this all the way down to 3mg to get over the lowest dosage hump even. One has no nicotine, the other only has 3mg. Eventually the non-social fixation (ie, at your house alone) stops, and the social fixation (ie, outside of a bar, etc) is controllable with no nicotine... Then that's not even getting into the different ohm ratings etc that further control dosage without affecting the fixation of using the vape. edit: note I say "easy", but its not a short process.. If you try to go immediately from 48mg to 3mg you won't have a good time. It takes months for each step down

cat199 7y ago
and if you're using a tank system or filling your carts, you can mix your own dosage from 0% + something else. or just stay at 0%.
danlugo92 7y ago
My own experience FWIW: I had no problems going from half a pack a day to a 3mg liquid + half a pack a week.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
Nicotine's method of action for addiction isn't commonly understood very well. It's extremely specific - nicotine works to make the things you do around the exposure more habitual. If it's slapping on a nicotine patch and going on a run, you're more likely to get into a habit of slapping on a patch and going on a run. If it's taking a break outside and puffing from a vaporizer, then it's simply taking a break and puffing from a vaporizer. That's largely why e-cigs are the most successful way to quit smoking tobacco products - it's the most similar habit to smoking cigarettes, so it slots into the existing highly-reinforced habits that smokers have. You drop a bunch of the random other chemicals that are present in cigarettes, and wind up reinforcing the replacement habit before dropping dosages and having a regular habit that's as easy to quit as, say, biting your fingernails.

colechristensen 7y ago

It comes down to personality and biochemistry, not everyone is that hooked on the stuff. If you ban everything that is addictive you end up doing a disservice to people who can handle the substance or item in question. Banning addictive substances because some people can't handle them goes against my philosophy of the purpose of government. Do we need some kind of super-citizen test where you have to prove your knowledge and responsibility for people to be able to be free to do/have/use the things they want? I don't want a nanny state that bans what it thinks is bad for me and prevents me from accessing things that I want because some people can't handle it. I was talking to some of my old farmer relatives a few months ago and one of them was telling stories about his dynamite license. It was a useful thing to have when interacting with the land and you could get a license and just go out and buy dynamite. This was maybe 50 years ago. That is the kind of world I want to live in, where people who can prove themselves can get any tool they want or need to manipulate their minds or the world around them. Not a world where a committee (or public pressure) can decide what I can't handle or what's too dangerous. I don't want to live in a world of padded walls.

leetcrew 7y ago
personally I'm with you, although I'll grant reasonable concessions (eg, not many citizens need surface-to-air missiles). the problem is ideological unfortunately. people simply don't share your definition of "freedom" or value it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
WaxProlix 7y ago
What's to stop research into super-heroin as a product in that world? Just come up with the most psyche-abusive substance possible and enjoy an army of essentially slaves. People with the notion that free will is some sort of absolute confuse the heck out of me. I guess sibling post is right, it's just an issue of fundamental worldview being different.
- 7y ago

sjg007 7y ago

You could do a taper basically.

dilap 7y ago

On the flip side, going out on breaks w/ people to smoke or vape can be a great social enhancement. Made at least one great friend this way. Also how my mom met my dad. Still trying to think up a good replacement for this...

sbilstein 7y ago
If you are trying to quit, which it sounds like you are not, you have to unlearn this aspect of smoking. Obviously as a smoker, I loved doing that! It's just not good for your health or happiness. I was especially worried whenever I was going back to the bar/restaurant/office wondering if I smell too much like cigarettes
- girvo 7y ago
  > I was especially worried whenever I was going back to the bar/restaurant/office wondering if I smell too much like cigarettes As someone who quit cigarettes 5 years ago, but still chews 2mg gum (12 of them per day, about), you did for sure heh. Wasn't until I stopped smoking that I realised how bad it smelled. Also how good food tastes when I could taste stuff properly again!
- dilap 7y ago
  I agree -- on balance, smoking is not worth it, at least not regularly. So I basically never smoke cigarettes anymore, and Juul only occasionally. Still, I miss it...
RhodesianHunter 7y ago
Those of us who don't smoke still find ways to socialize and meet people. Usually around a totally different drug (alcohol).
dasKrokodil 7y ago
At my previous job, I simply went out with the smokers sometimes, to get some, uh, 'fresh air'. Didn't really get any fresh air that way, but I did socialize with them just fine and it wasn't as weird as it might sound.

ashton314 7y ago

Congradulations, man. That's really hard and I'm glad you feel that it had made a difference in you life. I've helped a few people get on the path to stop smoking. It's hard. Most people I helped struggled massively. It's a big accomplishment. Hats off to you! Enjoy your newfound freedom. :)

anxman 7y ago

Congrats for quitting. I was also just like you. I would smoke maybe one analog a day but with Juul, I blitzed through a whole pod. I became 10x more addicted. Thankfully I have been tobacco free for over a year now.