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People mention that ICE polices are Obama-era polices, because it shows something. It shows that the people in US, are influenced, to a large degree by selecti

People mention that ICE polices are Obama-era polices, because it shows something. It shows that the people in US, are influenced, to a large degree by selective outrage. Selective outrage, is not just a sign of intellectual dishonesty. Selective outrage leads to selective justice, selective justice leads to unfair justice, and that leads to Orwellian state or dictatorship. So showing the poison in selective outrage is totally appropriate.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cfv 7y ago
Nah sorry shouting matches are not my thing. Please provide evidence goodwill towards W's ICE's was not squandered by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior, or figure out someone else to drag into the slippery slope thing.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior What abhorrent behavior? They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. You don't have to come and apply for false asylum, and you're free to self-deport.
  - mcphage 7y ago
    > They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. What a miserable, angry world you inhabit, that you're willing to hurt some of the most vulnerable people on the planet, because of a useless worry that someone somewhere might be taking advantage of us.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      Consider I've witnessed the economic damage that unchecked migration causes, first-hand, I'm rather right to be angry that our politicians let this problem fester for decades at the expense of our nation's poorest. Perhaps you should climb down off of your ivory tower and visit blue-collar America from time to time. You're accusing me of hurting others, while defending policies that... hurt others.
      - enraged_camel 7y ago
        >> unchecked migration There is no "unchecked migration" to the United States. There's a hard cap on the number of refugees that can be admitted every year, and the asylum process is long, complex, and stressful. Over the past 10 years, more than 50% of asylum claims have been denied. So it's not like claiming asylum comes with any sort of guarantees either.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        > There is no "unchecked migration" to the United States. I'm referring to illegal immigration, of which a major component is the abuse of the asylum system. > So it's not like claiming asylum comes with any sort of guarantees either. Something like 90+% of claimants disappear after their initial catch-and-release at US / Mexico crossings, prompting Trump's controversial policy.
        rhcom2 7y ago
        > Something like 90+% of claimants disappear after their initial catch-and-release at US / That was just a lie Pence told. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-migrants-show-up-immigration-court-hearings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...
        mieseratte 7y ago
        No, Washington Post is referring to a different set of statistics to attempt to discredit Pence's more specific claims. The claim is regarding the current flow on the southern border, not historical trends across the nation as was cited. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison. This is like that old chestnut, "Bill Gates and I have a combined average net-worth of 40 billion dollars!" Well, I have none and he has 80 billion. You can't use broad statistics to disregard specific, regional trends.
        rhcom2 7y ago
    - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
      Actually, it's a pretty nice world, and I don't see anything wrong with wanting to keep it that way for our posterity to inherit. We have a lot of wealth, sure, but it's not infinite, and there are orders of magnitude more people that can take advantage of us than we can weather without driving our children's standard of living into the ground.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    > What abhorrent behavior? Did you ignore my comment two comments up from yours? Read it, and the links.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Intellectual dishonesty is pretending that Trump's policies are identical to Obama's. For example, at least one of the infamous chain-link-cage detention centers was indeed built under Obama. That's worth knowing, and it's also worth knowing that, by law, children were to be kept there for no more than 72 hours before being transferred to better quarters. The zero-tolerance policy that separated children from parents as the norm rather than an exception, that resulted in children being stuffed in those cages far beyond their intended capacity and left there for weeks, in unsanitary conditions, was all Trump. The deaths of an unprecedented seven children in one year in ICE custody, despite the total number of detainees nationwide being lower, was on Trump's watch. Sources: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigran... https://www.apnews.com/fdfbafe1f2784a759bc7c3a8e8ddbcab https://www.apnews.com/fdfbafe1f2784a759bc7c3a8e8ddbcab https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children... Downvoters: I'm curious if you believe my facts are incorrect, or if you're just downvoting because you don't like my politics.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > Downvoters: I'm curious if you believe my facts are incorrect, or if you're just downvoting because you don't like my politics. I didn't downvote, but the sooner you can move away from the idea that rational debate is still possible, the sooner we can move to a solution. Rational discourse is fundamentally impossible with bad faith interlocutors, and the entire reactionary right movement is primarily concerned with one thing: "owning the libs, by any means necessary." There is no good faith discussion possible from thatstarting point.
huntedsnark 7y ago
Many people are upset about the child separation and detention policies which were not standard under the Obama administration as opposed to deportation. Conflating the two seems to embody the same intellectual dishonesty you're railing against. https://www.npr.org/2019/04/09/711446917/fact-check-trump-wrongly-states-obama-administration-had-child-separation-policy https://www.npr.org/2019/04/09/711446917/fact-check-trump-wr...
human20190310 7y ago
Even assuming outrage is selective, the question remains: was the outrage inappropriately withheld before, or is it inappropriately applied now? If indeed it was inappropriately withheld in the past, I don't see any moral necessity to remain consistent, even if the flip-flopping turns out to be politically convenient.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

cfv 7y ago

Nah sorry shouting matches are not my thing. Please provide evidence goodwill towards W's ICE's was not squandered by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior, or figure out someone else to drag into the slippery slope thing.

mieseratte 7y ago
> by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior What abhorrent behavior? They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. You don't have to come and apply for false asylum, and you're free to self-deport.
- mcphage 7y ago
  > They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. What a miserable, angry world you inhabit, that you're willing to hurt some of the most vulnerable people on the planet, because of a useless worry that someone somewhere might be taking advantage of us.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    Consider I've witnessed the economic damage that unchecked migration causes, first-hand, I'm rather right to be angry that our politicians let this problem fester for decades at the expense of our nation's poorest. Perhaps you should climb down off of your ivory tower and visit blue-collar America from time to time. You're accusing me of hurting others, while defending policies that... hurt others.
    - enraged_camel 7y ago
      >> unchecked migration There is no "unchecked migration" to the United States. There's a hard cap on the number of refugees that can be admitted every year, and the asylum process is long, complex, and stressful. Over the past 10 years, more than 50% of asylum claims have been denied. So it's not like claiming asylum comes with any sort of guarantees either.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        > There is no "unchecked migration" to the United States. I'm referring to illegal immigration, of which a major component is the abuse of the asylum system. > So it's not like claiming asylum comes with any sort of guarantees either. Something like 90+% of claimants disappear after their initial catch-and-release at US / Mexico crossings, prompting Trump's controversial policy.
        rhcom2 7y ago
        > Something like 90+% of claimants disappear after their initial catch-and-release at US / That was just a lie Pence told. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-migrants-show-up-immigration-court-hearings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...
        mieseratte 7y ago
        No, Washington Post is referring to a different set of statistics to attempt to discredit Pence's more specific claims. The claim is regarding the current flow on the southern border, not historical trends across the nation as was cited. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison. This is like that old chestnut, "Bill Gates and I have a combined average net-worth of 40 billion dollars!" Well, I have none and he has 80 billion. You can't use broad statistics to disregard specific, regional trends.
        rhcom2 7y ago
  - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
    Actually, it's a pretty nice world, and I don't see anything wrong with wanting to keep it that way for our posterity to inherit. We have a lot of wealth, sure, but it's not infinite, and there are orders of magnitude more people that can take advantage of us than we can weather without driving our children's standard of living into the ground.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > What abhorrent behavior? Did you ignore my comment two comments up from yours? Read it, and the links.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

Intellectual dishonesty is pretending that Trump's policies are identical to Obama's. For example, at least one of the infamous chain-link-cage detention centers was indeed built under Obama. That's worth knowing, and it's also worth knowing that, by law, children were to be kept there for no more than 72 hours before being transferred to better quarters. The zero-tolerance policy that separated children from parents as the norm rather than an exception, that resulted in children being stuffed in those cages far beyond their intended capacity and left there for weeks, in unsanitary conditions, was all Trump. The deaths of an unprecedented seven children in one year in ICE custody, despite the total number of detainees nationwide being lower, was on Trump's watch. Sources: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigran... https://www.apnews.com/fdfbafe1f2784a759bc7c3a8e8ddbcab https://www.apnews.com/fdfbafe1f2784a759bc7c3a8e8ddbcab https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children... Downvoters: I'm curious if you believe my facts are incorrect, or if you're just downvoting because you don't like my politics.

ianleeclark 7y ago
> Downvoters: I'm curious if you believe my facts are incorrect, or if you're just downvoting because you don't like my politics. I didn't downvote, but the sooner you can move away from the idea that rational debate is still possible, the sooner we can move to a solution. Rational discourse is fundamentally impossible with bad faith interlocutors, and the entire reactionary right movement is primarily concerned with one thing: "owning the libs, by any means necessary." There is no good faith discussion possible from thatstarting point.

huntedsnark 7y ago

Many people are upset about the child separation and detention policies which were not standard under the Obama administration as opposed to deportation. Conflating the two seems to embody the same intellectual dishonesty you're railing against. https://www.npr.org/2019/04/09/711446917/fact-check-trump-wrongly-states-obama-administration-had-child-separation-policy https://www.npr.org/2019/04/09/711446917/fact-check-trump-wr...

human20190310 7y ago

Even assuming outrage is selective, the question remains: was the outrage inappropriately withheld before, or is it inappropriately applied now? If indeed it was inappropriately withheld in the past, I don't see any moral necessity to remain consistent, even if the flip-flopping turns out to be politically convenient.