8 ms·

I don't think kids should vape. I don't think vaping is 100% harmless. I don't vape or smoke. I also think that there is some contingent of people who are exces

by S_A_P 7y ago

I don't think kids should vape. I don't think vaping is 100% harmless. I don't vape or smoke. I also think that there is some contingent of people who are excessively worried about vaping and looking for problems that don't seem to exist. It doesn't help that there is conflation between cannabis and e cigs, and that (based on best evidence right now) the fake cannabis liquid is causing the handful severe lung infections. I don't mind more regulation here, absolutely make sure it's safe and find a set of ingredients that cause the least amount of harm to humans. Why is vaping perceived as so dangerous? Compared with cigarettes its damn near harmless. I don't get it.

neaden 7y ago
"Compared with cigarettes its damn near harmless." Maybe. Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. We don't know what the long term effects will be, and conducting a real time trial on 20% of the nations high-schoolers isn't the optimal way to find out.
- elcomet 7y ago
  Well it is much more harmless than tobacco. Which is not a reason to encourage its usage for kids of course.
  - cblades 7y ago
    Says who? What long-term studies have there been on the effects of vaping?
- superfluousText 7y ago
  Odd how no one says that about produce that has had bacteria genes spliced in to it and is now fed to hundreds of millions of people. We won't even label it.
  - neaden 7y ago
    We actually study it quite a bit. But nice job trying to distract the conversation onto a completely separate issue.
    - standardUser 7y ago
      It was an apt comparison, and obviously we have not studied it over a 30 or 40 year period. Same as with vaping.
nilkn 7y ago
I think it's more that Juul pods have a very high level of nicotine and are creating a new generation of addicts. Even if they don't end up dying of cancer, this is still potentially millions of lifetimes of addiction for society to bear over the next 20-50 years. My opinion: keep the nicotine for tobacco-flavored pods as a smoking cessation tool; otherwise drop the nicotine and go for a La Croix-style strategy.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Yes, if Juul had really wanted to position itself as a responsible actor they would offer further step-down nicotine levels, 2% and 1%, to better assist in quitting. I'd love it if a few lawsuits could get internal discussion surrounding those conversations.
- avn2109 7y ago
  Being addicted to nicotine isn't really a problem, it doesn't give you cancer or other diseases. The problem is all the other unpleasant things in cigarette smoke.
  - ticmasta 7y ago
    cigarettes are a very close substitute for vaping and much cheaper
  - nilkn 7y ago
    I'm not sure that's true [0]. "Nicotine causes catecholamine release both locally and systemically leading to an increase in heart rate, blood pressure and cardiac contractility. It reduces blood flow in cutaneous and coronary vessels; and increases blood flow in the skeletal muscles. Due to restricted myocardial oxygen delivery there is reduced cardiac work. In a study, chewing a low dose (4 mg) of nicotine gum by healthy nonsmokers blunted the increase in coronary blood flow that occurs with increased heart rate produced by cardiac pacing. Thus, persistent stimulation by nicotine can contribute to Coronary Vascular Disease by producing acute myocardial ischemia. In the presence of coronary disease, myocardial dysfunction can be worsened." "Nicotine alters the structural and functional characteristics of vascular smooth muscle and endothelial cells. It enhances release of the basic fibroblast growth factor and inhibits production of transforming growth factor-β1. These effects lead to increased DNA synthesis, mitogenic activity, endothelial proliferation and increases atherosclerotic plaque formation. Neovascularization stimulated by nicotine can help progression of atherosclerotic plaques. These effects lead to myointimal thickening and atherogenic and ischemic changes, increasing the incidence of hypertension and cardiovascular disorders." "Nicotine plays a role in the development of emphysema in smokers, by decreasing elastin in the lung parenchyma and increasing the alveolar volume." "The simultaneous effect of bronchoconstriction and apnea increases the tracheal tension and causes several respiratory disorders." "Nicotine use has been associated with Gastro Esophageal Reflux Disorder (GERD) and peptic ulcer disease (PUD)." "Nicotine has been known to be immunosuppressive through central and peripheral mechanisms. It impairs antigen and receptor mediated signal transduction in the lymphoid system leading to decreased immunological response." "Nicotine promotes pathologic angiogenesis and retinal neovascularization in murine models. It causes age-related macular degeneration in mice." "There is synergistic relationship between nicotine and glucose metabolism which increases the risk of diabetes mellitus. This might cause accelerated cataract formation." "Nitrous oxide liberated from parasympathetico-nergic nerves plays a pivotal role in generating immediate penile vasodilatation and corpus cavernosum relaxation, and NO derived from endothelial cells contributes to maintaining penile erection. Nicotine causes impairment of NO synthesis. This may lead to loss of penile erections and erectile dysfunction." "Nicotine affects the ovaries and alters the production of oocytes in various animal studies. Nicotine-treated oocytes appeared nonspherical with rough surface and torn and irregular zona-pellucida. Nicotine also caused disturbed oocyte maturation. There is a decreased blood flow to the oviducts and thus impaired fertilization." "Various animal studies show retarded fetal growth and lower birth weight when treated perinatally with nicotine. The lower levels of ACTH and cortisol due to nicotine are probable reasons for the incidence of lower birth weight in the newborns." "Nicotine adversely affects many organs as shown in human and animal studies. Its biological effects are widespread and extend to all systems of the body including cardiovascular, respiratory, renal and reproductive systems. Nicotine has also been found to be carcinogenic in several studies. It promotes tumorigenesis by affecting cell proliferation, angiogenesis and apoptotic pathways. It causes resistance to the chemotherapeutic agents." [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/
ineedasername 7y ago
I'm not sure we can say it's damn near harmless at this point. It hasn't been around long enough to measure the really long-term health impacts, especially considering there are chemicals present in vaping that aren't in traditional cigarettes. They've only seen wide use for a little more than 10 years. Do we really know what propylene glycol will do to lungs or bodies over decades? There are also some harmful chemicals that are actually higher in e-cigs [0] In short, while available research points towards these things being safer, we really don't know what that margin is. Even if it's, say, 10 times safer, if vaping explodes to more than 10x the current smoking population then net harm could still be increased. Or not! But that's my point: we really don't know. Personally, I don't think they should be outlawed. I think fruit flavors should be banned just like they are in cigarettes, and I think anti-smoking education campaigns need to ramp up their message to include vaping as a "no, just don't ever even start" part of the effort, and e-cigs should be required to only be marketed as aids for quitting smoking. [0]https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/4/e20173557 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/4/e201735...
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  > I'm not sure we can say it's damn near harmless at this point. Compared to what? Harm isn't measured in a vacuum. In the comparisons that make sense (e.g. vaping vs smoking american cigarettes) vaping is in fact damn near harmless in comparison, even if harmless is not the term I'd use for a vasodilator as potent as nicotine. All of these "well we don't know vaping is harmless" monologues are coming from bad faith where you compare it to breathing "air" or something. Even that comparison doesn't really work because city air can itself be on the order of harm of a smoking habit—wouldn't it be funny if simply existing in SF turned out worse for your lung health than vaping? https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/08/13/air-pollution-can-accelerate-lung-disease-as-much-as-a-pack-a-day-of-cigarettes https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/08/13/air-pollution-can... So... of course we don't know what the harm of these things are, but we do know the harm of cigarette smoking, a factor that seems repeatedly absent from calls for regulations of vaping. Why aren't people banning cigarettes?
  - ineedasername 7y ago

by S_A_P 7y ago

neaden 7y ago

"Compared with cigarettes its damn near harmless." Maybe. Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. We don't know what the long term effects will be, and conducting a real time trial on 20% of the nations high-schoolers isn't the optimal way to find out.

elcomet 7y ago
Well it is much more harmless than tobacco. Which is not a reason to encourage its usage for kids of course.
- cblades 7y ago
  Says who? What long-term studies have there been on the effects of vaping?
superfluousText 7y ago
Odd how no one says that about produce that has had bacteria genes spliced in to it and is now fed to hundreds of millions of people. We won't even label it.
- neaden 7y ago
  We actually study it quite a bit. But nice job trying to distract the conversation onto a completely separate issue.
  - standardUser 7y ago
    It was an apt comparison, and obviously we have not studied it over a 30 or 40 year period. Same as with vaping.

nilkn 7y ago

I think it's more that Juul pods have a very high level of nicotine and are creating a new generation of addicts. Even if they don't end up dying of cancer, this is still potentially millions of lifetimes of addiction for society to bear over the next 20-50 years. My opinion: keep the nicotine for tobacco-flavored pods as a smoking cessation tool; otherwise drop the nicotine and go for a La Croix-style strategy.

ineedasername 7y ago
Yes, if Juul had really wanted to position itself as a responsible actor they would offer further step-down nicotine levels, 2% and 1%, to better assist in quitting. I'd love it if a few lawsuits could get internal discussion surrounding those conversations.
avn2109 7y ago
Being addicted to nicotine isn't really a problem, it doesn't give you cancer or other diseases. The problem is all the other unpleasant things in cigarette smoke.
- ticmasta 7y ago
  cigarettes are a very close substitute for vaping and much cheaper
- nilkn 7y ago
  I'm not sure that's true [0]. "Nicotine causes catecholamine release both locally and systemically leading to an increase in heart rate, blood pressure and cardiac contractility. It reduces blood flow in cutaneous and coronary vessels; and increases blood flow in the skeletal muscles. Due to restricted myocardial oxygen delivery there is reduced cardiac work. In a study, chewing a low dose (4 mg) of nicotine gum by healthy nonsmokers blunted the increase in coronary blood flow that occurs with increased heart rate produced by cardiac pacing. Thus, persistent stimulation by nicotine can contribute to Coronary Vascular Disease by producing acute myocardial ischemia. In the presence of coronary disease, myocardial dysfunction can be worsened." "Nicotine alters the structural and functional characteristics of vascular smooth muscle and endothelial cells. It enhances release of the basic fibroblast growth factor and inhibits production of transforming growth factor-β1. These effects lead to increased DNA synthesis, mitogenic activity, endothelial proliferation and increases atherosclerotic plaque formation. Neovascularization stimulated by nicotine can help progression of atherosclerotic plaques. These effects lead to myointimal thickening and atherogenic and ischemic changes, increasing the incidence of hypertension and cardiovascular disorders." "Nicotine plays a role in the development of emphysema in smokers, by decreasing elastin in the lung parenchyma and increasing the alveolar volume." "The simultaneous effect of bronchoconstriction and apnea increases the tracheal tension and causes several respiratory disorders." "Nicotine use has been associated with Gastro Esophageal Reflux Disorder (GERD) and peptic ulcer disease (PUD)." "Nicotine has been known to be immunosuppressive through central and peripheral mechanisms. It impairs antigen and receptor mediated signal transduction in the lymphoid system leading to decreased immunological response." "Nicotine promotes pathologic angiogenesis and retinal neovascularization in murine models. It causes age-related macular degeneration in mice." "There is synergistic relationship between nicotine and glucose metabolism which increases the risk of diabetes mellitus. This might cause accelerated cataract formation." "Nitrous oxide liberated from parasympathetico-nergic nerves plays a pivotal role in generating immediate penile vasodilatation and corpus cavernosum relaxation, and NO derived from endothelial cells contributes to maintaining penile erection. Nicotine causes impairment of NO synthesis. This may lead to loss of penile erections and erectile dysfunction." "Nicotine affects the ovaries and alters the production of oocytes in various animal studies. Nicotine-treated oocytes appeared nonspherical with rough surface and torn and irregular zona-pellucida. Nicotine also caused disturbed oocyte maturation. There is a decreased blood flow to the oviducts and thus impaired fertilization." "Various animal studies show retarded fetal growth and lower birth weight when treated perinatally with nicotine. The lower levels of ACTH and cortisol due to nicotine are probable reasons for the incidence of lower birth weight in the newborns." "Nicotine adversely affects many organs as shown in human and animal studies. Its biological effects are widespread and extend to all systems of the body including cardiovascular, respiratory, renal and reproductive systems. Nicotine has also been found to be carcinogenic in several studies. It promotes tumorigenesis by affecting cell proliferation, angiogenesis and apoptotic pathways. It causes resistance to the chemotherapeutic agents." [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

ineedasername 7y ago

I'm not sure we can say it's damn near harmless at this point. It hasn't been around long enough to measure the really long-term health impacts, especially considering there are chemicals present in vaping that aren't in traditional cigarettes. They've only seen wide use for a little more than 10 years. Do we really know what propylene glycol will do to lungs or bodies over decades? There are also some harmful chemicals that are actually higher in e-cigs [0] In short, while available research points towards these things being safer, we really don't know what that margin is. Even if it's, say, 10 times safer, if vaping explodes to more than 10x the current smoking population then net harm could still be increased. Or not! But that's my point: we really don't know. Personally, I don't think they should be outlawed. I think fruit flavors should be banned just like they are in cigarettes, and I think anti-smoking education campaigns need to ramp up their message to include vaping as a "no, just don't ever even start" part of the effort, and e-cigs should be required to only be marketed as aids for quitting smoking. [0]https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/4/e20173557 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/141/4/e201735...

SomeOldThrow 7y ago
> I'm not sure we can say it's damn near harmless at this point. Compared to what? Harm isn't measured in a vacuum. In the comparisons that make sense (e.g. vaping vs smoking american cigarettes) vaping is in fact damn near harmless in comparison, even if harmless is not the term I'd use for a vasodilator as potent as nicotine. All of these "well we don't know vaping is harmless" monologues are coming from bad faith where you compare it to breathing "air" or something. Even that comparison doesn't really work because city air can itself be on the order of harm of a smoking habit—wouldn't it be funny if simply existing in SF turned out worse for your lung health than vaping? https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/08/13/air-pollution-can-accelerate-lung-disease-as-much-as-a-pack-a-day-of-cigarettes https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/08/13/air-pollution-can... So... of course we don't know what the harm of these things are, but we do know the harm of cigarette smoking, a factor that seems repeatedly absent from calls for regulations of vaping. Why aren't people banning cigarettes?
- ineedasername 7y ago