6 ms·

So much pearl clutching and "but Obama" in this thread. You've poisoned discourse to a degree where you no longer can see the plain truth that publicly acting

by cfv 7y ago

So much pearl clutching and "but Obama" in this thread. You've poisoned discourse to a degree where you no longer can see the plain truth that publicly acting like a hateful ghoul does not ingratiate you with the general public. The invisible hand of the free market has spoken, and it isn't touching that with a 10-foot pole. Get over it.

ng12 7y ago
I think it is reasonable to point out the hypocrisy. By the numbers, Obama was just as tough on our southern border.
- faissaloo 7y ago
  It strikes me as a sort of whataboutism
  - ng12 7y ago
    I'm beginning to hate this term. It's recent popularity has a tendency to turn everything into a reductionist argument. It shuts down discussion about the bigger picture or broad ideals in favor of a very narrow band of discourse.
    - Jach 7y ago
      Join the club! One useful phrase to keep in mind is "Chinese Robber Fallacy"[0] (edit: and for more than just spotting questionable uses of "whataboutism"[1]). It's "where you use a generic problem to attack a specific person or group, even though other groups have the problem just as much (or even more so)." Of course if you engage in this sort of "fallacy fallacy!" argument style, you rapidly get far from the discussion on the actual topic. The best move is probably just not to play. [0] https://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/03/08/the-chinese-robber-fallacy/ https://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/03/08/the-chinese-robber... [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/16/cardiologists-and-chinese-robbers/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/16/cardiologists-and-chin...
    - faissaloo 7y ago
      No, engaging in whataboutism is what shuts down discussion, highlighting it merely serves to mitigate the effects.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    You're not wrong, for what it's worth. Sorry you're getting downvoted.
    - faissaloo 7y ago
      It's cool, I'm used to it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cfv 7y ago
  By the numbers, bathtubs consistently kill more americans than terrorists have in the last several decades. It's not about the numbers, it's all about not being an absolute disgrace while handling the topic.
  - ng12 7y ago
    If your political beliefs change based on how their presented I don't think they're very firmly held.
    - cfv 7y ago
      // @see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052134
      - ng12 7y ago
        Your above post was awfully inflammatory for someone not interested in discussion.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        Did the moderators take a vacation or something? This whole thread is a raging flame war.
        Stratoscope 7y ago
        There are only two moderators, so I hope they can be forgiven for being late on a thread here or there. I suggest you do as I did and flag the offensive flamebait comments. You need to click through to each individual comment (the nnn hours/minutes ago links) to see the flag link. I think you also need some minimum karma/reputation but don't know the specific number.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        > There are only two moderators, so I hope they can be forgiven for missing a thread here or there. Never did figure out, are dang and scbt doing this on some kind of part-time / volunteer basis? > I suggest you do as I did and flag the offensive flamebait comments. Did hours ago...
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  You're focusing on numbers of detainees when the larger issue is the treatment of those detainees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376 This is why people are crying whataboutism. "Attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument," per Wikipedia. Downvoters: I'm curious if you believe my facts are incorrect, or if you're just downvoting because you don't like my politics.
- amalter 7y ago
  Indeed Obama was "deporter in chief" - all presidents are. However, the rule of law was still enforced. Obama concentrated on immigrants with a criminal record and those "picked up" at the border. Family separation was rare, and there was an advocacy and appeal process. USCIS judges were not silenced and neutered. It was far from a perfect system, but there was an attempt to make it compassionate. This is why the numbers don't tell the whole story. G.W returned more than Obama, Clinton more than G.W., H.W. more than Clinton. This is not a Obama vs Trump issue - this is a "Every US President in modern history" vs Trump issue. It is possible to enforce immigration laws compassionately. It is not hypocrisy to call this out.
75dvtwin 7y ago
People mention that ICE polices are Obama-era polices, because it shows something. It shows that the people in US, are influenced, to a large degree by selective outrage. Selective outrage, is not just a sign of intellectual dishonesty. Selective outrage leads to selective justice, selective justice leads to unfair justice, and that leads to Orwellian state or dictatorship. So showing the poison in selective outrage is totally appropriate.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cfv 7y ago
  Nah sorry shouting matches are not my thing. Please provide evidence goodwill towards W's ICE's was not squandered by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior, or figure out someone else to drag into the slippery slope thing.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior What abhorrent behavior? They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. You don't have to come and apply for false asylum, and you're free to self-deport.
    - mcphage 7y ago
      > They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. What a miserable, angry world you inhabit, that you're willing to hurt some of the most vulnerable people on the planet, because of a useless worry that someone somewhere might be taking advantage of us.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        Consider I've witnessed the economic damage that unchecked migration causes, first-hand, I'm rather right to be angry that our politicians let this problem fester for decades at the expense of our nation's poorest. Perhaps you should climb down off of your ivory tower and visit blue-collar America from time to time. You're accusing me of hurting others, while defending policies that... hurt others.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dang 7y ago
Please don't do political flamewar on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's incompatible with intellectual curiosity, which is what this site exists for. Yes, some political overlap is inevitable. But flamewar is not, and holding that distinction is key to preventing this site from exploding itself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cfv 7y ago
  Agreed. Can you please do something about the people paraphrasing the 14 words and attempting to sealion the thread? Please.
  - ryanobjc 7y ago
    As long as you’re polite you can advocate for all the ethnic cleansing you want. But if you get upset about all that ethnic cleansing, well someone has some shadow ban and words for you.
    - dang 7y ago
      That's not only false, it's a smear.

by cfv 7y ago

ng12 7y ago

I think it is reasonable to point out the hypocrisy. By the numbers, Obama was just as tough on our southern border.

faissaloo 7y ago
It strikes me as a sort of whataboutism
- ng12 7y ago
  I'm beginning to hate this term. It's recent popularity has a tendency to turn everything into a reductionist argument. It shuts down discussion about the bigger picture or broad ideals in favor of a very narrow band of discourse.
  - Jach 7y ago
    Join the club! One useful phrase to keep in mind is "Chinese Robber Fallacy"[0] (edit: and for more than just spotting questionable uses of "whataboutism"[1]). It's "where you use a generic problem to attack a specific person or group, even though other groups have the problem just as much (or even more so)." Of course if you engage in this sort of "fallacy fallacy!" argument style, you rapidly get far from the discussion on the actual topic. The best move is probably just not to play. [0] https://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/03/08/the-chinese-robber-fallacy/ https://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/03/08/the-chinese-robber... [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/16/cardiologists-and-chinese-robbers/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/09/16/cardiologists-and-chin...
  - faissaloo 7y ago
    No, engaging in whataboutism is what shuts down discussion, highlighting it merely serves to mitigate the effects.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  You're not wrong, for what it's worth. Sorry you're getting downvoted.
  - faissaloo 7y ago
    It's cool, I'm used to it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cfv 7y ago
By the numbers, bathtubs consistently kill more americans than terrorists have in the last several decades. It's not about the numbers, it's all about not being an absolute disgrace while handling the topic.
- ng12 7y ago
  If your political beliefs change based on how their presented I don't think they're very firmly held.
  - cfv 7y ago
    // @see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052134
    - ng12 7y ago
      Your above post was awfully inflammatory for someone not interested in discussion.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        Did the moderators take a vacation or something? This whole thread is a raging flame war.
        Stratoscope 7y ago
        There are only two moderators, so I hope they can be forgiven for being late on a thread here or there. I suggest you do as I did and flag the offensive flamebait comments. You need to click through to each individual comment (the nnn hours/minutes ago links) to see the flag link. I think you also need some minimum karma/reputation but don't know the specific number.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        > There are only two moderators, so I hope they can be forgiven for missing a thread here or there. Never did figure out, are dang and scbt doing this on some kind of part-time / volunteer basis? > I suggest you do as I did and flag the offensive flamebait comments. Did hours ago...
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
You're focusing on numbers of detainees when the larger issue is the treatment of those detainees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376 This is why people are crying whataboutism. "Attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument," per Wikipedia. Downvoters: I'm curious if you believe my facts are incorrect, or if you're just downvoting because you don't like my politics.
amalter 7y ago
Indeed Obama was "deporter in chief" - all presidents are. However, the rule of law was still enforced. Obama concentrated on immigrants with a criminal record and those "picked up" at the border. Family separation was rare, and there was an advocacy and appeal process. USCIS judges were not silenced and neutered. It was far from a perfect system, but there was an attempt to make it compassionate. This is why the numbers don't tell the whole story. G.W returned more than Obama, Clinton more than G.W., H.W. more than Clinton. This is not a Obama vs Trump issue - this is a "Every US President in modern history" vs Trump issue. It is possible to enforce immigration laws compassionately. It is not hypocrisy to call this out.

75dvtwin 7y ago

People mention that ICE polices are Obama-era polices, because it shows something. It shows that the people in US, are influenced, to a large degree by selective outrage. Selective outrage, is not just a sign of intellectual dishonesty. Selective outrage leads to selective justice, selective justice leads to unfair justice, and that leads to Orwellian state or dictatorship. So showing the poison in selective outrage is totally appropriate.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cfv 7y ago
Nah sorry shouting matches are not my thing. Please provide evidence goodwill towards W's ICE's was not squandered by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior, or figure out someone else to drag into the slippery slope thing.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > by this government's disgraceful and abhorrent behavior What abhorrent behavior? They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. You don't have to come and apply for false asylum, and you're free to self-deport.
  - mcphage 7y ago
    > They've attempted to disincentive people abusing asylum policies. What a miserable, angry world you inhabit, that you're willing to hurt some of the most vulnerable people on the planet, because of a useless worry that someone somewhere might be taking advantage of us.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      Consider I've witnessed the economic damage that unchecked migration causes, first-hand, I'm rather right to be angry that our politicians let this problem fester for decades at the expense of our nation's poorest. Perhaps you should climb down off of your ivory tower and visit blue-collar America from time to time. You're accusing me of hurting others, while defending policies that... hurt others.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dang 7y ago

Please don't do political flamewar on HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's incompatible with intellectual curiosity, which is what this site exists for. Yes, some political overlap is inevitable. But flamewar is not, and holding that distinction is key to preventing this site from exploding itself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

cfv 7y ago
Agreed. Can you please do something about the people paraphrasing the 14 words and attempting to sealion the thread? Please.
- ryanobjc 7y ago
  As long as you’re polite you can advocate for all the ethnic cleansing you want. But if you get upset about all that ethnic cleansing, well someone has some shadow ban and words for you.
  - dang 7y ago
    That's not only false, it's a smear.