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>Police get a lot of hate on HN because of some obviously over-the-top policies that need to be corrected. But we would have major problems without law enforcem

>Police get a lot of hate on HN because of some obviously over-the-top policies that need to be corrected. But we would have major problems without law enforcement This seems like a fantastic leap. I think there are zero or borderline zero instances of calls, even implicitly, for the abolishment of law due to individual horrors.

tracker1 7y ago
There are plenty of politicians and candidates advocating for abolishing CBP/ICE.
- sachdevap 7y ago
  ICE, not CBP. Don't conflate the two.
  - makomk 7y ago
    The whole "abolish ICE" movement seems to revolve around conflating the two - an awful lot of the things people point to when justifying their calls to abolish ICE were actually done by CBP.
    - solidsnack9000 7y ago
      Like what?
      - 1111236112347 7y ago
        I recently saw this article presented as an example of how ICE mistreats people: https://www.latimes.com/nation/ct-children-border-patrol-facility-20180617-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/ct-children-border-patrol-fac... It's totally understandable that people are confused by the distinction between CPB and ICE. I certainly was baffled myself, until I spent a big chunk of time digging into it. And I still don't fully understand the multiple transfers of custody between those agencies, plus ORR which often ends up having custody of unaccompanied minors. It's hard to imagine how abolishing ICE alone would resolve the humanitarian issues. I think it's reasonable to assume "abolish ICE" is really referring to a broader reform encompassing all of ICE, CBP, and ORR.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  ICE, not CBP. And abolishing a particular enforcement agency isn't abolishing law. Law around the border didn't disappear when INS was dismantled.
- snowwrestler 7y ago
  Calls to abolish ICE are mostly based on the opinion that the current state of its management and culture irreparably harms its ability to lawfully pursue its mission. Agree or not with that opinion, but it's not an opinion to cease law enforcement in general.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  CBP/ICE didn't exist before 2003, yet we still had law enforcement.
  - 1111236112347 7y ago
    True, but INS, Customs Service, and others that were enforcing laws prior to 2003 were disbanded by the Homeland Security Act that created CBP/ICE.
- nraynaud 7y ago
  ICE, because it’s useless. There is a service for catching criminals it’s called the police. There is absolutely no need for a nazier one that would handle only one type of misdemeanors in the most brutal And devastating way they can do.
  - newfriend 7y ago
    There is obviously a current need for ICE. There are more than 10 million illegal aliens currently living in the US illegally, and this problem has been happening for decades. It's disingenuous to call this a misdemeanor when it's in regard to people who have no legal right to be in the United States. Immigration law is a federal issue, and local law enforcement is not setup to deal with these situations. I agree with you though that it would be great if local police were enabled to find and deport all of the illegal aliens currently residing in the US illegally.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      > It's disingenuous to call this a misdemeanor when it's in regard to people who have no legal right to be in the United States. Why? It is a misdemeanor. You've got no legal right to park in a handicapped spot, either, but that doesn't make it a felony.
      - newfriend 7y ago
        Because there are no other misdemeanors where the penalty is deportation. You are knowingly likening it to minor infractions by legal residents as an attempt to frame it in a palatable manner. The only reason to point it out as a misdemeanor is to make it seem like it is not a problem.
        1111236112347 7y ago
        Could you elaborate on the "it" you refer to? ICE has jurisdiction over a large number of federal laws involving immigration as well as laws involving transporting illegal goods across national boundaries (narcotics, weapons, money laundering, child pornography, etc...). Some of these crimes certainly are felonies, whereas others are misdemeanors.
- messick 7y ago
  ICE the agency isn't old enough to vote or buy cigarettes. CBP is different agency and no one is calling to abolish it. In fact, equating to two is common tactic of the "throwing children into cages is good, actually" crowd and most of the time it means the person is arguing in bad faith.
didgeoridoo 7y ago
How about a literal headline in a mainstream left publication? https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-lets-have-full-social-economic-and-political-equality/ https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-let...
- outworlder 7y ago
  How about we stop cherry picking sensationalist articles from questionable "news" sources?
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    The Nation is hardly fringe, though it is partisan. Mind: I disagree strongly with OP's initial comment.
homonculus1 7y ago
People unironically post on HN that prisons should be abolished on a semi-regular basis. It's not groupthink by any means, but some people have far more extreme beliefs about the law than I think you realize.

tracker1 7y ago

There are plenty of politicians and candidates advocating for abolishing CBP/ICE.

sachdevap 7y ago
ICE, not CBP. Don't conflate the two.
- makomk 7y ago
  The whole "abolish ICE" movement seems to revolve around conflating the two - an awful lot of the things people point to when justifying their calls to abolish ICE were actually done by CBP.
  - solidsnack9000 7y ago
    Like what?
    - 1111236112347 7y ago
      I recently saw this article presented as an example of how ICE mistreats people: https://www.latimes.com/nation/ct-children-border-patrol-facility-20180617-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/ct-children-border-patrol-fac... It's totally understandable that people are confused by the distinction between CPB and ICE. I certainly was baffled myself, until I spent a big chunk of time digging into it. And I still don't fully understand the multiple transfers of custody between those agencies, plus ORR which often ends up having custody of unaccompanied minors. It's hard to imagine how abolishing ICE alone would resolve the humanitarian issues. I think it's reasonable to assume "abolish ICE" is really referring to a broader reform encompassing all of ICE, CBP, and ORR.
dragonwriter 7y ago
ICE, not CBP. And abolishing a particular enforcement agency isn't abolishing law. Law around the border didn't disappear when INS was dismantled.
snowwrestler 7y ago
Calls to abolish ICE are mostly based on the opinion that the current state of its management and culture irreparably harms its ability to lawfully pursue its mission. Agree or not with that opinion, but it's not an opinion to cease law enforcement in general.
ceejayoz 7y ago
CBP/ICE didn't exist before 2003, yet we still had law enforcement.
- 1111236112347 7y ago
  True, but INS, Customs Service, and others that were enforcing laws prior to 2003 were disbanded by the Homeland Security Act that created CBP/ICE.
nraynaud 7y ago
ICE, because it’s useless. There is a service for catching criminals it’s called the police. There is absolutely no need for a nazier one that would handle only one type of misdemeanors in the most brutal And devastating way they can do.
- newfriend 7y ago
  There is obviously a current need for ICE. There are more than 10 million illegal aliens currently living in the US illegally, and this problem has been happening for decades. It's disingenuous to call this a misdemeanor when it's in regard to people who have no legal right to be in the United States. Immigration law is a federal issue, and local law enforcement is not setup to deal with these situations. I agree with you though that it would be great if local police were enabled to find and deport all of the illegal aliens currently residing in the US illegally.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    > It's disingenuous to call this a misdemeanor when it's in regard to people who have no legal right to be in the United States. Why? It is a misdemeanor. You've got no legal right to park in a handicapped spot, either, but that doesn't make it a felony.
    - newfriend 7y ago
      Because there are no other misdemeanors where the penalty is deportation. You are knowingly likening it to minor infractions by legal residents as an attempt to frame it in a palatable manner. The only reason to point it out as a misdemeanor is to make it seem like it is not a problem.
      - 1111236112347 7y ago
        Could you elaborate on the "it" you refer to? ICE has jurisdiction over a large number of federal laws involving immigration as well as laws involving transporting illegal goods across national boundaries (narcotics, weapons, money laundering, child pornography, etc...). Some of these crimes certainly are felonies, whereas others are misdemeanors.
messick 7y ago
ICE the agency isn't old enough to vote or buy cigarettes. CBP is different agency and no one is calling to abolish it. In fact, equating to two is common tactic of the "throwing children into cages is good, actually" crowd and most of the time it means the person is arguing in bad faith.

didgeoridoo 7y ago

How about a literal headline in a mainstream left publication? https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-lets-have-full-social-economic-and-political-equality/ https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-let...

outworlder 7y ago
How about we stop cherry picking sensationalist articles from questionable "news" sources?
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  The Nation is hardly fringe, though it is partisan. Mind: I disagree strongly with OP's initial comment.

homonculus1 7y ago

People unironically post on HN that prisons should be abolished on a semi-regular basis. It's not groupthink by any means, but some people have far more extreme beliefs about the law than I think you realize.