6 ms·

So because they fight human trafficking (which is undoubtedly a good thing), we should overlook people dying in their concentration camps and children being kep

So because they fight human trafficking (which is undoubtedly a good thing), we should overlook people dying in their concentration camps and children being kept in inhumane conditions? Is there some sort of scale we measure these things on where if you do enough good things you're allowed a certain amount of atrocities without intervention?

tracker1 7y ago
Were you this outraged about the conditions when Obama was in office?
- kungtotte 7y ago
  I don't live in the US, so I was not exposed to this issue until it became a big news item outside the US which happened after Trump came into office. So the answer is no, I wasn't because I was unable to be outraged due to my lack of information.
- staticassertion 7y ago
  I will not defend Obama's administration, or Bush's, but it's disingenuous to call out previous admins for new policies. Here is Jeff Sessions' "zero-tolerance policy". https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-ze... This policy has been one source of the controversial separation of family members from one another. Whether you supported previous admin policy or not is not really relevant, this is easily the most widely discussed component of the existing controversy. This is one way in which the current administration has departed from previous ones, in a concrete policy based manner, and there are others. You can find all of this information online quite easily, and I would encourage you to do so. edit: I'm going to disengage, but for anyone saying "What about Obama?" did you watch the last Democratic primary debate? Biden was asked directly if he would apologize for the policies of that administration.
- blueline 7y ago
  what if my answer is yes? this line of questioning where somehow "obama did it too" is supposed to be the ultimate own for anyone left of Reagan confuses me. do i get extra argument points for not liking ICE no matter who's sitting in the white house?
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Conditions weren't like this when Obama was in office. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376
  - tracker1 7y ago
    That's fair.. it's also fair that the US takes in roughly 1/5 of the world refugees, more than any other nation by a wide margin. And illegal crossings alone are nearly double those numbers this past year.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> So because they fight human trafficking (which is undoubtedly a good thing), we should overlook people dying in their concentration camps and children being kept in inhumane conditions? Note that the investigatory group within ICE (Homeland Security Investigations) that is key to fighting human trafficking is almost entirely separate from the rest of ICE and has raised being part of ICE in the current environment, because of the backlashes the rest of ICEs practices have been producing, as inhibiting their work, because it reduces the willingness of people they need voluntary cooperation from to work with them, because “ICE”. So, another reason to dismantle ICE.
- newfriend 7y ago
  There are more than ten million illegal aliens currently living in the US illegally -- a great reason to not dismantle ICE. The existing laws should be enforced, and they haven't been for decades. If the laws should be changed, then congress should work to change them. Allowing millions of people to evade the law because of feelings is not a solution.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > There are more than ten million illegal aliens currently living in the US illegally -- a great reason to not dismantle ICE. No matter what your views on immigratiom policy are otherwise, I don't see how that's a great reason for preserving the present organization. If you view the present legality as correct, it's a reason to have the enforcement function in a competent and effective organization that is broadly respected by the public, but that doesn't sound like ICE.
big_chungus 7y ago
Quit calling them concentration camps. That's ridiculous and hyperbolic. No one forced people to cross the border illegally, whereas Jews were rounded up and starved to death. Not even a close comparison. By your logic, all prisons are "concentration camps". If you don't want them held until trial, what should we do instead? They are essentially prisons, because that is what we do with people who break the law.
- duk3luk3 7y ago
  A point made to fight misinformation: The vast majority of people in immigration detention are not suspected of having committed any crimes.
  - sundbry 7y ago
    That's total bullshit. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- outworlder 7y ago
  > They are essentially prisons, because that is what we do with people who break the law. If you cross the border to request asylum, doesn't matter if walking or by using a star trek teleporter, you are committing no crime. They are breaking no laws.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    At a port of entry only. At which point, you can't be released into the country while you wait, because 90% don't actually show up for hearings.
    - FireBeyond 7y ago

tracker1 7y ago

Were you this outraged about the conditions when Obama was in office?

kungtotte 7y ago
I don't live in the US, so I was not exposed to this issue until it became a big news item outside the US which happened after Trump came into office. So the answer is no, I wasn't because I was unable to be outraged due to my lack of information.
staticassertion 7y ago
I will not defend Obama's administration, or Bush's, but it's disingenuous to call out previous admins for new policies. Here is Jeff Sessions' "zero-tolerance policy". https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-ze... This policy has been one source of the controversial separation of family members from one another. Whether you supported previous admin policy or not is not really relevant, this is easily the most widely discussed component of the existing controversy. This is one way in which the current administration has departed from previous ones, in a concrete policy based manner, and there are others. You can find all of this information online quite easily, and I would encourage you to do so. edit: I'm going to disengage, but for anyone saying "What about Obama?" did you watch the last Democratic primary debate? Biden was asked directly if he would apologize for the policies of that administration.
blueline 7y ago
what if my answer is yes? this line of questioning where somehow "obama did it too" is supposed to be the ultimate own for anyone left of Reagan confuses me. do i get extra argument points for not liking ICE no matter who's sitting in the white house?
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Conditions weren't like this when Obama was in office. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052376
- tracker1 7y ago
  That's fair.. it's also fair that the US takes in roughly 1/5 of the world refugees, more than any other nation by a wide margin. And illegal crossings alone are nearly double those numbers this past year.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> So because they fight human trafficking (which is undoubtedly a good thing), we should overlook people dying in their concentration camps and children being kept in inhumane conditions? Note that the investigatory group within ICE (Homeland Security Investigations) that is key to fighting human trafficking is almost entirely separate from the rest of ICE and has raised being part of ICE in the current environment, because of the backlashes the rest of ICEs practices have been producing, as inhibiting their work, because it reduces the willingness of people they need voluntary cooperation from to work with them, because “ICE”. So, another reason to dismantle ICE.

newfriend 7y ago
There are more than ten million illegal aliens currently living in the US illegally -- a great reason to not dismantle ICE. The existing laws should be enforced, and they haven't been for decades. If the laws should be changed, then congress should work to change them. Allowing millions of people to evade the law because of feelings is not a solution.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > There are more than ten million illegal aliens currently living in the US illegally -- a great reason to not dismantle ICE. No matter what your views on immigratiom policy are otherwise, I don't see how that's a great reason for preserving the present organization. If you view the present legality as correct, it's a reason to have the enforcement function in a competent and effective organization that is broadly respected by the public, but that doesn't sound like ICE.

big_chungus 7y ago

Quit calling them concentration camps. That's ridiculous and hyperbolic. No one forced people to cross the border illegally, whereas Jews were rounded up and starved to death. Not even a close comparison. By your logic, all prisons are "concentration camps". If you don't want them held until trial, what should we do instead? They are essentially prisons, because that is what we do with people who break the law.

duk3luk3 7y ago
A point made to fight misinformation: The vast majority of people in immigration detention are not suspected of having committed any crimes.
- sundbry 7y ago
  That's total bullshit. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
outworlder 7y ago
> They are essentially prisons, because that is what we do with people who break the law. If you cross the border to request asylum, doesn't matter if walking or by using a star trek teleporter, you are committing no crime. They are breaking no laws.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  At a port of entry only. At which point, you can't be released into the country while you wait, because 90% don't actually show up for hearings.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago