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> Change for change's sake is the worst possible reason for change Which is not the case here. The slides outline what is currently lacking and why and how imp

> Change for change's sake is the worst possible reason for change Which is not the case here. The slides outline what is currently lacking and why and how improvements are needed. Admittedly this seems more driven by enterprise needs (LDAP, encryption, yubikey support etc.). You can rightfully criticize the systemd project for many thinks, but "change for change's sake" is definitely not among them. > Not that I want my servers to be more like my desktop, but the other way around. In which way are managed, scriptable home directories not more like servers?

jacquesm 7y ago
Yes, you can always come up with a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to justify that which you wanted to do anyway. That's how the whole systemd madness got going and it will continue until all of the system has been consumed. Take pulseaudio as a nice example: works for 95% of the trival cases, fails for 100% of the more complex cases. The more Linux is dumbed down the harder it gets to do real work. A desktop on top of a powerful multi-user system is far more capable than a trimmed down Unix under a slick, single person UI. We already had that, it's called Mac OS/X and those who want it have had that option since forever.
- icebraining 7y ago
  I don't see how PA is "trimmed down" or "dumbed down". From what I can tell, it provides quite a few more features than ALSA+dmix, which was the solution typically used previously. For example, I can now route the output of mpv to HDMI so someone can watch a movie, while I route other applications to my bluetooth headphones. Was this possible with ALSA?
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    > Was this possible with ALSA? Sure, but truth be told ALSA required a bit of knowledge to set up properly. But instead of re-doing the whole audio system from the ground up and tossing away the good with the bad it could have been done just as well by making a proper ALSA auto-configurator. No need for all this re-invention in more buggy ways. Besides that, when PA came out you couldn't do any of that either, it was barely usable and the most frequent PA related activity was 'uninstall'.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      >> Was this possible with ALSA? > Sure Fair enough. I did look and I couldn't find any way to set up independent outputs from different inputs. In any case, I still don't see the dumbing down. > Besides that, when PA came out you couldn't do any of that either, it was barely usable and the most frequent PA related activity was 'uninstall'. Most FOSS software is released to the public at a very early stage. The problem is trigger-happy distros including it by default too soon, but that's not PA's team fault.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        If the 'trigger happy' distro happens to have a billion dollar company behind it then you can forget about packages competing on merit.

jacquesm 7y ago

Yes, you can always come up with a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to justify that which you wanted to do anyway. That's how the whole systemd madness got going and it will continue until all of the system has been consumed. Take pulseaudio as a nice example: works for 95% of the trival cases, fails for 100% of the more complex cases. The more Linux is dumbed down the harder it gets to do real work. A desktop on top of a powerful multi-user system is far more capable than a trimmed down Unix under a slick, single person UI. We already had that, it's called Mac OS/X and those who want it have had that option since forever.

icebraining 7y ago
I don't see how PA is "trimmed down" or "dumbed down". From what I can tell, it provides quite a few more features than ALSA+dmix, which was the solution typically used previously. For example, I can now route the output of mpv to HDMI so someone can watch a movie, while I route other applications to my bluetooth headphones. Was this possible with ALSA?
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > Was this possible with ALSA? Sure, but truth be told ALSA required a bit of knowledge to set up properly. But instead of re-doing the whole audio system from the ground up and tossing away the good with the bad it could have been done just as well by making a proper ALSA auto-configurator. No need for all this re-invention in more buggy ways. Besides that, when PA came out you couldn't do any of that either, it was barely usable and the most frequent PA related activity was 'uninstall'.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    >> Was this possible with ALSA? > Sure Fair enough. I did look and I couldn't find any way to set up independent outputs from different inputs. In any case, I still don't see the dumbing down. > Besides that, when PA came out you couldn't do any of that either, it was barely usable and the most frequent PA related activity was 'uninstall'. Most FOSS software is released to the public at a very early stage. The problem is trigger-happy distros including it by default too soon, but that's not PA's team fault.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      If the 'trigger happy' distro happens to have a billion dollar company behind it then you can forget about packages competing on merit.