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I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing and ai

I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something unbecoming of a team leader. Better pay attention to appearances when you're at work. I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought, or those who base their social lives around co-workers... doing so seems to risk your upward mobility. It's a sad POV but from my experience anyways I think it's reality.

nicoburns 7y ago
> doing so seems to risk your upward mobility. It's a sad POV but from my experience anyways I think it's reality. Maybe some people aren't that concerned about upwards mobility, and care more about having a work envitonment where they can relax and be themselves?
Porthos9K 7y ago
I'm not a team leader and have no interest in becoming one. Moreover, I spent most of my adult life hiding behind a professional persona and all it did was make me miserable because people only noticed me when they wanted something from me. I'm done with that nonsense. I won't embarrass the company, insult clients, or create a hostile work environment but otherwise I'm not going to pretend that I left my personality in the car. If you can't accept me then you don't deserve me. Fit that into your culture if you can.
- treypitt 7y ago
  do you think professionalism was the main cause of people only seeing you instrumentally? if so, I'd be interested to hear more about your definition of professionalism
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    I honestly have no idea if my notion of professionalism was the main cause of others only seeing me instrumentally, but my idea of professionalism is to come in, do the job well, not talk about anything unrelated to the job, attend unavoidable company functions, and then go home. Anything not directly related to the job remained outside the office.
tarsinge 7y ago
It really depends on the context. I’ve found that some times being yourself and not overthinking communicates a lot authenticity and trustworthiness, and really helps in building strong relationships with superiors and clients. In those times many clients seems to appreciate a fresh no bullshit attitude, in contrast to a polished impersonal one (which sends all the bad signals associated with big IT projects).
gil 7y ago
> I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something unbecoming of a team leader. Indeed, this is a very good way to put it. Although I do understand people who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought - they value fun and genuine social interactions more than "upward mobility". If you can't be yourself for at least 8h/day and you also can't be yourself after that, because you shouldn't base you social life around your co-workers, then who are you? And when are you allowed to be yourself? Weekends and bank holidays? Fuck. That. We would all be happier if we were allowed to be ourselves all the time. Maybe by hopping around until landing on a cluster of likewise co-workers who can see the "high quality professional" side by side with the crazy cat lady or the punkrocker. But again, I think your decription is correct and that we live within a very sad state of affairs.
- close04 7y ago
  Saying objectively stupid or offensive stuff without reading the room is a bad idea wherever you are. But people already treat family, friends, coworkers differently, with different topics of discussion and jokes. So you have a different "face" or "recipe" for each of them anyway. And small talk might actually help your chances of upward mobility since people start being aware of your name. They know you delivered something. Your superiors are more likely to mention that and you if people in the room know who you are than if you're "a resource".
- donkeyd 7y ago
  Thanks for this. This has become a realization of mine in the past couple of years. I already wear a neat shirt to work and do my hair neatly, because that's expected. I'm not going to change my personality however, because I am who I am and I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not. I've even decided that I will no longer 'perform' interviews. I could get most jobs, because I'm pretty good at doing interviews. However, I've come to the conclusion that I should just be me and if they don't like it, there isn't a fit. Recently got my first rejection because of this and I didn't mind as much as I thought I would. Of course, exceptions will be made when I really need a job. But as long as the market is on my side, I'll just keep being myself.
thefz 7y ago
> I've found out the hard way that relaxing and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something unbecoming of a team leader. I've also found that letting out the least amount of personal information possible disarms those that to climb the ladder exploit and set people against each other.
Tade0 7y ago
> I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought I'm such a coworker. Two reasons I do this: 1. I don't care about "upward mobility". 2. People don't see me as a threat to theirs, which is a good thing, because you don't want an overly ambitious junior developer trying to prove his(or hers) worth by picking on you. Reason 0. is that weirdly enough it's good to appear somewhat "incompetent", but still in reality be able to deliver.
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  > 1. I don't care about "upward mobility". Wait long enough and you'll probably find younger people will do your job for cheaper, unless you can prove you're worth promoting. Some people can really stick it out, but usually by job security ("Larry is the only one who knows AIX and we can't replace it") > 2. People don't see me as a threat to theirs Eventually there will be layoffs, at which point you don't want to be the one guy that nobody wants around. I know most people in tech seem to think they'll be employable forever, but it's an illusion.
  - Tade0 7y ago
    1. Already happened and I wasn't laid off because of that, because apparently people are still making money on my work. 2. I've been laid off in the past. What's interesting about this is that another company will still have you provided you pass their recruitment process. Seems obvious, but not for someone who's going through this for the same time. What also helps is that I'm EU-Eastern-European, so my labour is relatively cheap.
- Vel0cityX 7y ago
  > weirdly enough it's good to appear somewhat "incompetent", but still in reality be able to deliver How so? To maintain lower expectations & set yourself up to surprise people positively?
  - Jedd 7y ago
    If you don't see it coming when someone explains it, you definitely won't see it coming when it's not being forecast in a public forum.
liveoneggs 7y ago
weird- my observation is that people who "get ahead" (into middle management) tend to be unconcerned with what they say at the lunch table (unless someone two+ levels in attending). In fact they are often highly inappropriate because it will lead others to say bad stuff, meaning gossip they can share with their chosen handler, who can then use that gossip against others to promote themselves and bring their lackey along for the ride. Maybe we've worked in different environments. :)
- JTbane 7y ago
  >In fact they are often highly inappropriate because it will lead others to say bad stuff, meaning gossip they can share with their chosen handler Seems like the standard "kiss up, kick down" mentality that is often present in corporate environments
vorpalhex 7y ago
I see the general direction you're coming from, but in my own mental model I see the following divide: 1. Things that are simply silly. I like assembling toy models. Is it silly? Absolutely. Am I shy about talking about it with peers or making jokes about it? Nope. It's just silly. Same goes for my favorite wing place or a dozen other topics. 2. Things that are possibly offensive. A good model here is "combustible topics". Even if the topic itself may not bother someone, it could become that way. Religion, politics, social theory, etc. It's not that I don't have plenty of opinions here, it's that work is not the right place to raise these up. I also recommend avoiding them at family events, and any other situation in which strangers are trapped into conversing with you. But I agree with this: > I don't understand... those who base their social lives around co-workers Dangerous territory. You may be great friends in real life but be on opposite sides of the table at work or vice versa. Worst of all, you may find out someone who you work with constantly has several behaviors or opinions you find distasteful. Keep some space.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
GhettoMaestro 7y ago
Your comments remind me why I pushed out all of the people on my team that are fundamentally anti-social. It becomes such an annoying drag. Thank god I did. I get one life to live and refuse to jump through bullshit hoops for people who think they are more important than what they really are - such as yourself.
- not_a_moth 7y ago
  You're confusing a basic drive to get ahead with self importance. If you're giving your life's labor to someone else's company, you better get the most out of it in return. Since you targeted me, your attitude seems like the typical Silicon Valley "lifestyle" worker, which I think is the most uninspiring type of SV person around.
coldtea 7y ago
>I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought (...) doing so seems to risk your upward mobility Some people could not give less fucks about "upward mobility" (especially at the cost of some other things they value). They have what they want in life, and they'd rather be genuine...

nicoburns 7y ago

> doing so seems to risk your upward mobility. It's a sad POV but from my experience anyways I think it's reality. Maybe some people aren't that concerned about upwards mobility, and care more about having a work envitonment where they can relax and be themselves?

Porthos9K 7y ago

I'm not a team leader and have no interest in becoming one. Moreover, I spent most of my adult life hiding behind a professional persona and all it did was make me miserable because people only noticed me when they wanted something from me. I'm done with that nonsense. I won't embarrass the company, insult clients, or create a hostile work environment but otherwise I'm not going to pretend that I left my personality in the car. If you can't accept me then you don't deserve me. Fit that into your culture if you can.

treypitt 7y ago
do you think professionalism was the main cause of people only seeing you instrumentally? if so, I'd be interested to hear more about your definition of professionalism
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  I honestly have no idea if my notion of professionalism was the main cause of others only seeing me instrumentally, but my idea of professionalism is to come in, do the job well, not talk about anything unrelated to the job, attend unavoidable company functions, and then go home. Anything not directly related to the job remained outside the office.

tarsinge 7y ago

It really depends on the context. I’ve found that some times being yourself and not overthinking communicates a lot authenticity and trustworthiness, and really helps in building strong relationships with superiors and clients. In those times many clients seems to appreciate a fresh no bullshit attitude, in contrast to a polished impersonal one (which sends all the bad signals associated with big IT projects).

gil 7y ago

> I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something unbecoming of a team leader. Indeed, this is a very good way to put it. Although I do understand people who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought - they value fun and genuine social interactions more than "upward mobility". If you can't be yourself for at least 8h/day and you also can't be yourself after that, because you shouldn't base you social life around your co-workers, then who are you? And when are you allowed to be yourself? Weekends and bank holidays? Fuck. That. We would all be happier if we were allowed to be ourselves all the time. Maybe by hopping around until landing on a cluster of likewise co-workers who can see the "high quality professional" side by side with the crazy cat lady or the punkrocker. But again, I think your decription is correct and that we live within a very sad state of affairs.

close04 7y ago
Saying objectively stupid or offensive stuff without reading the room is a bad idea wherever you are. But people already treat family, friends, coworkers differently, with different topics of discussion and jokes. So you have a different "face" or "recipe" for each of them anyway. And small talk might actually help your chances of upward mobility since people start being aware of your name. They know you delivered something. Your superiors are more likely to mention that and you if people in the room know who you are than if you're "a resource".
donkeyd 7y ago
Thanks for this. This has become a realization of mine in the past couple of years. I already wear a neat shirt to work and do my hair neatly, because that's expected. I'm not going to change my personality however, because I am who I am and I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not. I've even decided that I will no longer 'perform' interviews. I could get most jobs, because I'm pretty good at doing interviews. However, I've come to the conclusion that I should just be me and if they don't like it, there isn't a fit. Recently got my first rejection because of this and I didn't mind as much as I thought I would. Of course, exceptions will be made when I really need a job. But as long as the market is on my side, I'll just keep being myself.

thefz 7y ago

> I've found out the hard way that relaxing and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something unbecoming of a team leader. I've also found that letting out the least amount of personal information possible disarms those that to climb the ladder exploit and set people against each other.

Tade0 7y ago

> I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought I'm such a coworker. Two reasons I do this: 1. I don't care about "upward mobility". 2. People don't see me as a threat to theirs, which is a good thing, because you don't want an overly ambitious junior developer trying to prove his(or hers) worth by picking on you. Reason 0. is that weirdly enough it's good to appear somewhat "incompetent", but still in reality be able to deliver.

peterwwillis 7y ago
> 1. I don't care about "upward mobility". Wait long enough and you'll probably find younger people will do your job for cheaper, unless you can prove you're worth promoting. Some people can really stick it out, but usually by job security ("Larry is the only one who knows AIX and we can't replace it") > 2. People don't see me as a threat to theirs Eventually there will be layoffs, at which point you don't want to be the one guy that nobody wants around. I know most people in tech seem to think they'll be employable forever, but it's an illusion.
- Tade0 7y ago
  1. Already happened and I wasn't laid off because of that, because apparently people are still making money on my work. 2. I've been laid off in the past. What's interesting about this is that another company will still have you provided you pass their recruitment process. Seems obvious, but not for someone who's going through this for the same time. What also helps is that I'm EU-Eastern-European, so my labour is relatively cheap.
Vel0cityX 7y ago
> weirdly enough it's good to appear somewhat "incompetent", but still in reality be able to deliver How so? To maintain lower expectations & set yourself up to surprise people positively?
- Jedd 7y ago
  If you don't see it coming when someone explains it, you definitely won't see it coming when it's not being forecast in a public forum.

liveoneggs 7y ago

weird- my observation is that people who "get ahead" (into middle management) tend to be unconcerned with what they say at the lunch table (unless someone two+ levels in attending). In fact they are often highly inappropriate because it will lead others to say bad stuff, meaning gossip they can share with their chosen handler, who can then use that gossip against others to promote themselves and bring their lackey along for the ride. Maybe we've worked in different environments. :)

JTbane 7y ago
>In fact they are often highly inappropriate because it will lead others to say bad stuff, meaning gossip they can share with their chosen handler Seems like the standard "kiss up, kick down" mentality that is often present in corporate environments

vorpalhex 7y ago

I see the general direction you're coming from, but in my own mental model I see the following divide: 1. Things that are simply silly. I like assembling toy models. Is it silly? Absolutely. Am I shy about talking about it with peers or making jokes about it? Nope. It's just silly. Same goes for my favorite wing place or a dozen other topics. 2. Things that are possibly offensive. A good model here is "combustible topics". Even if the topic itself may not bother someone, it could become that way. Religion, politics, social theory, etc. It's not that I don't have plenty of opinions here, it's that work is not the right place to raise these up. I also recommend avoiding them at family events, and any other situation in which strangers are trapped into conversing with you. But I agree with this: > I don't understand... those who base their social lives around co-workers Dangerous territory. You may be great friends in real life but be on opposite sides of the table at work or vice versa. Worst of all, you may find out someone who you work with constantly has several behaviors or opinions you find distasteful. Keep some space.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

GhettoMaestro 7y ago

Your comments remind me why I pushed out all of the people on my team that are fundamentally anti-social. It becomes such an annoying drag. Thank god I did. I get one life to live and refuse to jump through bullshit hoops for people who think they are more important than what they really are - such as yourself.

not_a_moth 7y ago
You're confusing a basic drive to get ahead with self importance. If you're giving your life's labor to someone else's company, you better get the most out of it in return. Since you targeted me, your attitude seems like the typical Silicon Valley "lifestyle" worker, which I think is the most uninspiring type of SV person around.

coldtea 7y ago

>I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought (...) doing so seems to risk your upward mobility Some people could not give less fucks about "upward mobility" (especially at the cost of some other things they value). They have what they want in life, and they'd rather be genuine...