6 ms·

Winning Kashmir and Losing India

17 points by hos234 7y ago

sbmthakur 7y ago
The author says that Modi is Gutting Indian Democracy. But apparently whatever the author described, happened through democratic and constitutional means. Strange.
- Synaesthesia 7y ago
  Destroying Kashmir’s autonomy more like, and it’s democracy, and try to turn India from a multi ethnic, diverse country into a jingoist Hindu nationalist state, intolerant of diversity.
  - sbmthakur 7y ago
    How good is the autonomy when it is used to deny women and gay rights?[1][2] It seems that you are terribly misinformed about India. The country remains muliti-ethinic and diverse. Please read the Constitution which is available in public domain. 1. https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/kashmir-article-370-women-cheer-equal-property-rights-1577637-2019-08-06 https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/kashmir-article-3... 2. https://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/what-you-may-not-know-about-kashmir-and-articles-37035a https://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/what-you-may-not-know-about...
    - Synaesthesia 7y ago
      I’m talking about what the political rights of the people of Kashmir. Let’s not turn this into Muslim bashing or a discussion on women’s rights and gay rights, which is a totally different topic. Does India have a perfect record with these things? Shall we bring that up too? What about torture and abduction of people of Kashmir, the stripping away of rights to protest, internet and curfews? I’m aware the constitution is multi ethnic and secular. I’m talking about what Modi and his party are doing to India. Kashmir was supposed to have special autonomy under article 370 of India’s constitution. India is acting very provocatively IMO by forcing it to give up autonomy.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - thw123123 7y ago
    Yes, because clearly their previous history of being killed by assorted Abrahmic religions dictates that they should open up for more of this. You've truly spoken like Gandhi, the 'Mahatma' who asked the Jews to march into Hitler's gas chambers. Muslims are the largest uniform community in a nation of tiny independent tribes. Terming them a minority (even in Kashmir, Kerala and Bengal) is a cruel joke in a country that constitutionally, and specifically discriminates against its own native traditions. Hindus barely have any religious rights in India (see the recent Puri temple complex destruction), and could certainly use some of this "Hindu Nationalism" within the vestigial matrix of a millennia of extractive colonialism.
- vore 7y ago
  I don't think it's much of a stretch to call authoritarian measures passed via democratic means undemocratic in themselves. I hate to be That Person, but I don't think anyone thinks the regime Nazi Germany is democratic in the slightest, yet was brought to power with the backdrop of a decidedly democratic constitution. I'm not calling anyone a Nazi here, for the record, just that actions undertaken under a democratic framework can totally end up being undemocratic and is fair to characterize as such.
- latch 7y ago
  What's strange? Scenarios where democracy is used to limit democracy aren't hard to understand. See the 2009 Venezuelan constitutional referendum or much of recent US policy towards immigrants and refuges.
- nilsocket 7y ago
  Regarding the Kashmir issue, When British left India, they divided India into 565 princely state, eventually almost all princely states joined either India or Pakistan. Jammu and Kashmir decided to stay independent by Harri Singh(King). Pakistan looked out it as opportunity and tried to seize J&K, later Harri Singh, came to seek out help from India. Then Vallabhbhai Patel(Deputy Prime Minister) took advantage of this situation and suggested J&K to become part of India. There Harri Singh have signed making it part of India. Indian government didn't occupy the area which is occupied by Pakistan, they have stopped Pakistan. But didn't push back Pakistan. This part of area which is occupied by Pakistan is called as POK(Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) in India. Later Article 370 was introduced as temporary provision for J&K, giving them special status in Indian constitution. Article 370 goes something like this: 1. Nobody can buy any land in J&K. 2. If a women marries any Indian citizen, she was denied as citizen of J&K. 3. ... Most of the J&K citizens were unemployed because there is no investment. Terrorists have always seen this as opportunity and infiltrated into India and many Kashmirs were trained as terrorists. India lost nearly 40,000 soldiers in Kashmir. From nearly 70 years, Kashmir have been easy target for terrorists groups, because citizens have got nothing to do, and some of them turned into extremists. Indian government is used to pump in lot of money for some of J&K citizens for basic necessities with subsidies. Regarding abrogation of article 370, Jammu and ladakh people were happy, some Kashmirs were not happy, and almost all of India is happy, regarding this change. Regarding Muslims being suppressed, .... We live like brothers. With such a huge population, sometimes disputes happen, media take it to another level, showcasing it as if though this is how whole India is like. Media turns even normal disputes into religious. Despite all this we live well.
zed88 7y ago
India is building large scale detention centres for people excluded by the NRC, especially targeted towards Muslims. Just another step towards a full blown fascism, which they plan to implement across India starting from Assam. Here is a video link https://youtu.be/ov8iCJB_o1c https://youtu.be/ov8iCJB_o1c
- thw123123 7y ago
  Stop lying. The majority of people under NRC are hapless Hindus fleeing persecution from Bangladesh. The NRC itself was an exercise directed by the Supreme court of India; with procedures being formulated by the "secular" Congress party. (It'd be unsurprising that the INC 'd make sure the procedures benefit their Islamist vote banks.)
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  That's false. NRC is religion-agnostic and it's targeted against illegal immigrants. Both Hindus and Muslims were left out in the final NRC list. Read the NRC accord to get a complete picture.
  - zed88 7y ago
    Here is the complete picture https://thewire.in/politics/amit-shahs-nrc-plan-decoded-communal-division-and-a-big-lie-too/amp/ https://thewire.in/politics/amit-shahs-nrc-plan-decoded-comm...
- nilsocket 7y ago
  Many detention camps were being build in Assam, because many illegal immigrants were trying to settle there. We already have huge population, and deficiency of resources, and the last thing we want is more population from other countries. Already our country is stressed up with all the issues we have.
youeseh 7y ago
For over 50 years Kashmir has enjoyed autonomy at the cost of all other states in India. The only people that have benefited from these provisions are the people who've ruled Kashmir at the cost of other citizens in the State. The minorities in the state have been pushed out violently. Another large part of the state - Ladakh - that shouldn't have been a part of Kashmir to begin with was tacked on and completely forgotten about, even though it has its own distinct identity. Is that incorrect and unfair? Most Indians think so, including all those that were exiled from their homes. This isn't just a "Hindu Nationalist" idea. Most Muslim Indians, Christian Indians, Buddhist, Zoroastrian and Jewish Indians think so too.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  This. To non-Indians who are reading: When it comes to opinions, India is a deeply divided country due to our democratic nature and sheer size of population. Almost any topic will find opposition or support from a large section of people. But this is one topic where almost a billion people were on the same page and supported the Government's decision.
amriksohata 7y ago
How can he gut democracy by removing an article which prevented integrations and women's rights? 370 only helped Islamic extremists as no one else could invest in the area giving them autonomy of control
ak_96 7y ago
India has long waited for this. Just to remind the readers who don't know the whole story, The Hindus of the Kashmir Valley, were forced to flee the Kashmir valley as a result of being targeted by JKLF and Islamist insurgents during late 1989 and early 1990. Of the approximately 300,000 to 600,000 Hindus living in the Kashmir Valley in 1990 only 2,000–3,000 remain there in 2016. On 19 January 1990 mosques issued declaration that Kashmiri Pandits were Kafirs (Disbelievers) and that the males had to leave Kashmir, convert to islam or be killed. Those who chose to the first of these were told to leave their women behind. The kashmiri muslims were instructed to identify Pandits homes so they could be systematically targeted for conversion or killing. Kashmir was a peaceful state till 1990s. It was only after exodus of Kashmiri Pandits and insurgency of militants government had to send in troops. The abrogration of article 370 is not going to take away any rights.It will just make them equivalent to other Indians.
nilsocket 7y ago
Regarding the Kashmir issue, When British left India, they divided India into 565 princely state, eventually almost all princely states joined either India or Pakistan. Jammu and Kashmir decided to stay independent by Harri Singh(King). Pakistan looked out it as opportunity and tried to seize J&K, later Harri Singh, came to seek out help from India. Then Vallabhbhai Patel(Deputy Prime Minister) took advantage of this situation and suggested J&K to become part of India. There Harri Singh have signed making it part of India. Indian government didn't occupy the area which is occupied by Pakistan, they have stopped Pakistan. But didn't push back Pakistan. This part of area which is occupied by Pakistan is called as POK(Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) in India. Later Article 370 was introduced as temporary provision for J&K, giving them special status in Indian constitution. Article 370 goes something like this: 1. Nobody can buy any land in J&K. 2. If a women marries any Indian citizen, she was denied as citizen of J&K. 3. ... Most of the J&K citizens were unemployed because there is no investment. Terrorists have always seen this as opportunity and infiltrated into India and many Kashmirs were trained as terrorists. India lost nearly 40,000 soldiers in Kashmir. From nearly 70 years, Kashmir have been easy target for terrorists groups, because citizens have got nothing to do, and some of them turned into extremists. Indian government is used to pump in lot of money for some of J&K citizens for basic necessities with subsidies. Regarding abrogation of article 370, Jammu and ladakh people were happy, some Kashmirs were not happy, and almost all of India is happy, regarding this change. Regarding Muslims being suppressed, .... We live like brothers. With such a huge population, sometimes disputes happen, media take it to another level, showcasing it as if though this is how whole India is like. Media turns even normal disputes into religious. Despite all this we live well.

17 points by hos234 7y ago

The author says that Modi is Gutting Indian Democracy. But apparently whatever the author described, happened through democratic and constitutional means. Strange.

Synaesthesia 7y ago
Destroying Kashmir’s autonomy more like, and it’s democracy, and try to turn India from a multi ethnic, diverse country into a jingoist Hindu nationalist state, intolerant of diversity.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  How good is the autonomy when it is used to deny women and gay rights?[1][2] It seems that you are terribly misinformed about India. The country remains muliti-ethinic and diverse. Please read the Constitution which is available in public domain. 1. https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/kashmir-article-370-women-cheer-equal-property-rights-1577637-2019-08-06 https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/kashmir-article-3... 2. https://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/what-you-may-not-know-about-kashmir-and-articles-37035a https://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/what-you-may-not-know-about...
  - Synaesthesia 7y ago
    I’m talking about what the political rights of the people of Kashmir. Let’s not turn this into Muslim bashing or a discussion on women’s rights and gay rights, which is a totally different topic. Does India have a perfect record with these things? Shall we bring that up too? What about torture and abduction of people of Kashmir, the stripping away of rights to protest, internet and curfews? I’m aware the constitution is multi ethnic and secular. I’m talking about what Modi and his party are doing to India. Kashmir was supposed to have special autonomy under article 370 of India’s constitution. India is acting very provocatively IMO by forcing it to give up autonomy.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- thw123123 7y ago
  Yes, because clearly their previous history of being killed by assorted Abrahmic religions dictates that they should open up for more of this. You've truly spoken like Gandhi, the 'Mahatma' who asked the Jews to march into Hitler's gas chambers. Muslims are the largest uniform community in a nation of tiny independent tribes. Terming them a minority (even in Kashmir, Kerala and Bengal) is a cruel joke in a country that constitutionally, and specifically discriminates against its own native traditions. Hindus barely have any religious rights in India (see the recent Puri temple complex destruction), and could certainly use some of this "Hindu Nationalism" within the vestigial matrix of a millennia of extractive colonialism.
vore 7y ago
I don't think it's much of a stretch to call authoritarian measures passed via democratic means undemocratic in themselves. I hate to be That Person, but I don't think anyone thinks the regime Nazi Germany is democratic in the slightest, yet was brought to power with the backdrop of a decidedly democratic constitution. I'm not calling anyone a Nazi here, for the record, just that actions undertaken under a democratic framework can totally end up being undemocratic and is fair to characterize as such.
latch 7y ago
What's strange? Scenarios where democracy is used to limit democracy aren't hard to understand. See the 2009 Venezuelan constitutional referendum or much of recent US policy towards immigrants and refuges.
nilsocket 7y ago
Regarding the Kashmir issue, When British left India, they divided India into 565 princely state, eventually almost all princely states joined either India or Pakistan. Jammu and Kashmir decided to stay independent by Harri Singh(King). Pakistan looked out it as opportunity and tried to seize J&K, later Harri Singh, came to seek out help from India. Then Vallabhbhai Patel(Deputy Prime Minister) took advantage of this situation and suggested J&K to become part of India. There Harri Singh have signed making it part of India. Indian government didn't occupy the area which is occupied by Pakistan, they have stopped Pakistan. But didn't push back Pakistan. This part of area which is occupied by Pakistan is called as POK(Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) in India. Later Article 370 was introduced as temporary provision for J&K, giving them special status in Indian constitution. Article 370 goes something like this: 1. Nobody can buy any land in J&K. 2. If a women marries any Indian citizen, she was denied as citizen of J&K. 3. ... Most of the J&K citizens were unemployed because there is no investment. Terrorists have always seen this as opportunity and infiltrated into India and many Kashmirs were trained as terrorists. India lost nearly 40,000 soldiers in Kashmir. From nearly 70 years, Kashmir have been easy target for terrorists groups, because citizens have got nothing to do, and some of them turned into extremists. Indian government is used to pump in lot of money for some of J&K citizens for basic necessities with subsidies. Regarding abrogation of article 370, Jammu and ladakh people were happy, some Kashmirs were not happy, and almost all of India is happy, regarding this change. Regarding Muslims being suppressed, .... We live like brothers. With such a huge population, sometimes disputes happen, media take it to another level, showcasing it as if though this is how whole India is like. Media turns even normal disputes into religious. Despite all this we live well.

zed88 7y ago

India is building large scale detention centres for people excluded by the NRC, especially targeted towards Muslims. Just another step towards a full blown fascism, which they plan to implement across India starting from Assam. Here is a video link https://youtu.be/ov8iCJB_o1c https://youtu.be/ov8iCJB_o1c

thw123123 7y ago
Stop lying. The majority of people under NRC are hapless Hindus fleeing persecution from Bangladesh. The NRC itself was an exercise directed by the Supreme court of India; with procedures being formulated by the "secular" Congress party. (It'd be unsurprising that the INC 'd make sure the procedures benefit their Islamist vote banks.)
sbmthakur 7y ago
That's false. NRC is religion-agnostic and it's targeted against illegal immigrants. Both Hindus and Muslims were left out in the final NRC list. Read the NRC accord to get a complete picture.
- zed88 7y ago
  Here is the complete picture https://thewire.in/politics/amit-shahs-nrc-plan-decoded-communal-division-and-a-big-lie-too/amp/ https://thewire.in/politics/amit-shahs-nrc-plan-decoded-comm...
nilsocket 7y ago
Many detention camps were being build in Assam, because many illegal immigrants were trying to settle there. We already have huge population, and deficiency of resources, and the last thing we want is more population from other countries. Already our country is stressed up with all the issues we have.

youeseh 7y ago

For over 50 years Kashmir has enjoyed autonomy at the cost of all other states in India. The only people that have benefited from these provisions are the people who've ruled Kashmir at the cost of other citizens in the State. The minorities in the state have been pushed out violently. Another large part of the state - Ladakh - that shouldn't have been a part of Kashmir to begin with was tacked on and completely forgotten about, even though it has its own distinct identity. Is that incorrect and unfair? Most Indians think so, including all those that were exiled from their homes. This isn't just a "Hindu Nationalist" idea. Most Muslim Indians, Christian Indians, Buddhist, Zoroastrian and Jewish Indians think so too.

sbmthakur 7y ago
This. To non-Indians who are reading: When it comes to opinions, India is a deeply divided country due to our democratic nature and sheer size of population. Almost any topic will find opposition or support from a large section of people. But this is one topic where almost a billion people were on the same page and supported the Government's decision.

amriksohata 7y ago

How can he gut democracy by removing an article which prevented integrations and women's rights? 370 only helped Islamic extremists as no one else could invest in the area giving them autonomy of control

ak_96 7y ago

India has long waited for this. Just to remind the readers who don't know the whole story, The Hindus of the Kashmir Valley, were forced to flee the Kashmir valley as a result of being targeted by JKLF and Islamist insurgents during late 1989 and early 1990. Of the approximately 300,000 to 600,000 Hindus living in the Kashmir Valley in 1990 only 2,000–3,000 remain there in 2016. On 19 January 1990 mosques issued declaration that Kashmiri Pandits were Kafirs (Disbelievers) and that the males had to leave Kashmir, convert to islam or be killed. Those who chose to the first of these were told to leave their women behind. The kashmiri muslims were instructed to identify Pandits homes so they could be systematically targeted for conversion or killing. Kashmir was a peaceful state till 1990s. It was only after exodus of Kashmiri Pandits and insurgency of militants government had to send in troops. The abrogration of article 370 is not going to take away any rights.It will just make them equivalent to other Indians.

nilsocket 7y ago

Regarding the Kashmir issue, When British left India, they divided India into 565 princely state, eventually almost all princely states joined either India or Pakistan. Jammu and Kashmir decided to stay independent by Harri Singh(King). Pakistan looked out it as opportunity and tried to seize J&K, later Harri Singh, came to seek out help from India. Then Vallabhbhai Patel(Deputy Prime Minister) took advantage of this situation and suggested J&K to become part of India. There Harri Singh have signed making it part of India. Indian government didn't occupy the area which is occupied by Pakistan, they have stopped Pakistan. But didn't push back Pakistan. This part of area which is occupied by Pakistan is called as POK(Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) in India. Later Article 370 was introduced as temporary provision for J&K, giving them special status in Indian constitution. Article 370 goes something like this: 1. Nobody can buy any land in J&K. 2. If a women marries any Indian citizen, she was denied as citizen of J&K. 3. ... Most of the J&K citizens were unemployed because there is no investment. Terrorists have always seen this as opportunity and infiltrated into India and many Kashmirs were trained as terrorists. India lost nearly 40,000 soldiers in Kashmir. From nearly 70 years, Kashmir have been easy target for terrorists groups, because citizens have got nothing to do, and some of them turned into extremists. Indian government is used to pump in lot of money for some of J&K citizens for basic necessities with subsidies. Regarding abrogation of article 370, Jammu and ladakh people were happy, some Kashmirs were not happy, and almost all of India is happy, regarding this change. Regarding Muslims being suppressed, .... We live like brothers. With such a huge population, sometimes disputes happen, media take it to another level, showcasing it as if though this is how whole India is like. Media turns even normal disputes into religious. Despite all this we live well.