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John Dvorak: Why I Don't Use Facebook

30 points by adeelarshad82 16y ago

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
wmeredith 16y ago
He makes a good point here, but Dvorak's thinking on technology is a crap shoot at best. This is the guy who thought the mouse was bullshit, he also thought the iPad was bullshit. I guess if you swing for the fences a lot you're going to miss, but sometimes it seems like he's contrary for the sake of being so. It's kind of his shtick. I think he's even said in an interview before that he's basically a well paid, well educated troll.
- shawndumas 16y ago
  even a broken clock is correct twice a day...
- GrooveStomp 16y ago
  Just because something is popular in the mainstream doesn't mean it's not bullshit. As far as calling himself a well paid, well educated troll; well, you can't take a tongue-in-cheek comment like that completely at face value. Rather than calling his thinking on technology a crap shoot, I'd call it a brutally honest personal assessment. In the case of his supposed bullshit call on the mouse and ipad, I'd call him exactly correct.
  - wglb 16y ago
    So in what way are the mouse and iPad bullshit? I am curious about your criteria.
- bingaman 16y ago
  The mouse is bullshit!
- tzs 16y ago
  Nearly everyone in the press and on the tech blogs thought the iPad was bullshit.
brudgers 16y ago
>"There is no reason for anyone with any chops online to be remotely involved with Facebook, except to peruse it for lost relatives." Facebook's facilitation of connections between individuals is a pretty big exception. It's sort of like saying, "there's no reason to read Dvorak's blog, except to find out what he has written."
- codeup 16y ago
  At the time, AOL's facilitation of people going online was a pretty big exception, too. After a short while, it was time to move on, and those who showed the way ahead were those who had already been critical of AOL.
  - brudgers 16y ago
    I agree. However, Dvorak's argument depends on: GOTO [url] or [AOL keyword] having an analog with regards to Facebook. But such an analog doesn't currently exist and the sort of personalized information channel Facebook makes available doesn't appear likely to exist on the open web.
jdp23 16y ago
TL;DR summary: "because I'm an elitist"
- frossie 16y ago
  Really? I thought his point was "because it is a closed system".
  - jdp23 16y ago
    "Facebook is a simple system for the masses that do not really care about technology and do not want to learn anything new except something easy like Facebook." "There is no reason for anyone with any chops online to be remotely involved with Facebook, except to peruse it for lost relatives."
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- FluidDjango 16y ago
  Alt. summary: "because I'm a professional curmudgeon, and my non-facebooker status will offer me an easy (hopefully provocative) blog post."
revorad 16y ago
Troll ahead. Do not read.
- AtTheLast 16y ago
  That should be the name of the article.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
kenjackson 16y ago
I also don't use Facebook, but I have an account. I rarely log in as there's generally nothing for me to see on Facebook. On occassion I get an email letting me know someone sent me a message or a friend request. I usually let those pile up, and then once every two weeks or so I log on and deal with them all. I like the picture hosting and the ability to find long lost friends more quickly (although honestly, I don't really have many long lost friends -- and LinkedIn I find better for finding old colleagues), but it's not sticky for me. I'm probably odd that I'd much rather read about how Logo turtle graphics and JS canvas are isomorphic than read status updates from friends. Not that I don't like knowing what my friends are doing, but its rarely the case that I need up to the minute notification. Once every two weeks is fine. And if there's something big, someone will call or send email.
- gst 16y ago
  Me too. I have an account so that people stop asking me to create an account. However, I've disabled most of the features in the privacy options (my account doesn't even have a "wall") and the only information for visitors is my "about" box asking them to send me an email instead of a Facebook message. I currently read mails about once or twice a day, because using things like email notifications just interrupts me during work. Regularly checking Facebook updates would be too much noise to me. I have tons of interesting content that I want to read (but I don't have enough time), so why should I read uninteresting Facebook updates instead? And to socialize I'm happy to get away from my computer, instead of spending even more time before the screen.
stuaxo 16y ago
What about all the other John Dvoraks that came before ?
- iwwr 16y ago
  There is only one John D. Dvorak.
pothibo 16y ago
Well it makes sense to tech-savvy people since they know that the other services exist. Ask your mum and your aunt to name 5 other service other than YouTube and Facebook... They probably won't even be able to name 1.
jpwagner 16y ago
Facebook is actually the logical end-point of what AOL should have become huh?? he seems to advocate never using a new thing.
- AtTheLast 16y ago
  Facebook seems more about connections and communication. AOL is all about sending me CD's everyday trying to get me to sign up for their service.
- wccrawford 16y ago
  Once upon a time, AOL was a BBS. What drives a BBS is community. They worked really hard on that aspect and even had messaging between users, forums, games, and more. Then, they decided they were an ISP instead and started claiming such. People forgot all the other services they offered and focused on the millions of frisbies they gave out. Facebook is all about community, with messaging, forums, games, event planning, and more. So yeah, it's what AOL should have been, but wasn't.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
joeyh 16y ago
Weird that he says Geocities was part of AOL. AFAIK, they were never corporately connected.
sdkmvx 16y ago
He makes the point that it's a closed system, then goes on to argue that if he ‘want[s] a personal webpage with all sorts of information about [himself], [he'll] go to Wordpress.com and make one.’ He has completely missed the interaction part of Facebook—the one part that attracts people, seeing as how people are social by nature. He mentions Wordpress as an alternative to the closed nature of Facebook, but he doesn't seem to realize that Wordpress is also a third party who would then have his data.
vessenes 16y ago
Reading Dvorak posts is like watching the slow-motion trainwreck. I thought to myself, "I wonder what idiotic thing John Dvorak is going to say this time?" And did I click? Yes, Yes I did. It strikes me that you have to be a pretty serious egotist/narcissist to think that Facebook is all about publishing, as opposed to all about connecting with people in your life. And, that mental profile would also suit someone who is happily, aggressively, FREQUENTLY wrong about technology, but doesn't mind making a career out of writing about it. I'm still going to read his occasional missives, though, I just can't help myself.
revorad 16y ago
Dear HNers who upvoted this article, this is EXACTLY the kind of crap which makes this place suck. Please use the flag button, not upvote on trolls. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- powellc 16y ago
  Amen! Just another troll post from PC Mag.
revorad 16y ago
Dear HNers who upvoted this article, this is EXACTLY the kind of crap which makes this place suck. Please use the flag button, not upvote on trolls. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
guywithabike 16y ago
If you suffix every other sentence with "... because I have no friends." it makes a whole lot more sense.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
brlewis 16y ago
Facebook used to be a closed system, and might become one again someday. But for now the graph API makes it an open system.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - brlewis 16y ago
    Are you saying the graph API isn't open enough? How, specifically?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
noelchurchill 16y ago
Facebook is like living in a large city. People are attracted to NYC because there is a lot going on there, they know people there, etc. Saying "Why use facebook when I have the whole internet" is similar to saying "Why live in the city when I can live in any number of other small towns." Sure, some people aren't big city people, and they like the smaller tighter rural communities. The city can belittle someone's ego and make them feel small and insignificant. There are always going to be the "city people" and the "non-city people." On Facebook Dvorak is just another user, but on pcmag.com he is an important journalist who's opinions are valued. Easy to see why he prefers one over the other.
iterationx 16y ago
Facebook isn't a closed system because you can write apps for it. It's an application platform which I think (caveat prediction) will become web infrastructure. The social layer will be integrated with everything. FB could screw it up and someone else could pull it off, but at the moment it looks like they will win.
wglb 16y ago
(This article is not really HN worthy). Dvorak has been oversimplifying since the keyboard was invented. If you have family or friends that don't live in the technical echosphere that we all do here, it is a good way to keep in touch with them. Even my mother, who is a wizzard at Word Perfect Reveal Codes isn't going to build a web site to share her poetry. I am sensing strains of the Priesthood mentality here.
bradleyland 16y ago
Similar ideas to what Simon at Buddy Cloud expressed: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2076932 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2076932 If you look back over the history of many technologies, you will see that closed often precedes open. Profit motive is a powerful force, but it is frequently overwhelmed by the motivation of freedom.
ebun 16y ago
"Which begs the question as to why anyone would use Facebook when it is essentially AOL done right?" I'm often taken aback when I hear/read these kind of comments. It shows the gulf between most web users and a minority of techies.
Aloisius 16y ago
I've deleted my Facebook account. And you know what? It didn't impact my life in the slightest. I was never a huge voyeur, so I never really got a lot of value out of Facebook anyway.
meadhikari 16y ago
I was just curious on what this man had to say about Twitter and I found this Twitter is the New CB radio http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2351932,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2351932,00.asp

30 points by adeelarshad82 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

He makes a good point here, but Dvorak's thinking on technology is a crap shoot at best. This is the guy who thought the mouse was bullshit, he also thought the iPad was bullshit. I guess if you swing for the fences a lot you're going to miss, but sometimes it seems like he's contrary for the sake of being so. It's kind of his shtick. I think he's even said in an interview before that he's basically a well paid, well educated troll.

shawndumas 16y ago
even a broken clock is correct twice a day...
GrooveStomp 16y ago
Just because something is popular in the mainstream doesn't mean it's not bullshit. As far as calling himself a well paid, well educated troll; well, you can't take a tongue-in-cheek comment like that completely at face value. Rather than calling his thinking on technology a crap shoot, I'd call it a brutally honest personal assessment. In the case of his supposed bullshit call on the mouse and ipad, I'd call him exactly correct.
- wglb 16y ago
  So in what way are the mouse and iPad bullshit? I am curious about your criteria.
bingaman 16y ago
The mouse is bullshit!
tzs 16y ago
Nearly everyone in the press and on the tech blogs thought the iPad was bullshit.

brudgers 16y ago

>"There is no reason for anyone with any chops online to be remotely involved with Facebook, except to peruse it for lost relatives." Facebook's facilitation of connections between individuals is a pretty big exception. It's sort of like saying, "there's no reason to read Dvorak's blog, except to find out what he has written."

codeup 16y ago
At the time, AOL's facilitation of people going online was a pretty big exception, too. After a short while, it was time to move on, and those who showed the way ahead were those who had already been critical of AOL.
- brudgers 16y ago
  I agree. However, Dvorak's argument depends on: GOTO [url] or [AOL keyword] having an analog with regards to Facebook. But such an analog doesn't currently exist and the sort of personalized information channel Facebook makes available doesn't appear likely to exist on the open web.

jdp23 16y ago

TL;DR summary: "because I'm an elitist"

frossie 16y ago
Really? I thought his point was "because it is a closed system".
- jdp23 16y ago
  "Facebook is a simple system for the masses that do not really care about technology and do not want to learn anything new except something easy like Facebook." "There is no reason for anyone with any chops online to be remotely involved with Facebook, except to peruse it for lost relatives."
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
FluidDjango 16y ago
Alt. summary: "because I'm a professional curmudgeon, and my non-facebooker status will offer me an easy (hopefully provocative) blog post."

revorad 16y ago

Troll ahead. Do not read.

AtTheLast 16y ago
That should be the name of the article.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

kenjackson 16y ago

I also don't use Facebook, but I have an account. I rarely log in as there's generally nothing for me to see on Facebook. On occassion I get an email letting me know someone sent me a message or a friend request. I usually let those pile up, and then once every two weeks or so I log on and deal with them all. I like the picture hosting and the ability to find long lost friends more quickly (although honestly, I don't really have many long lost friends -- and LinkedIn I find better for finding old colleagues), but it's not sticky for me. I'm probably odd that I'd much rather read about how Logo turtle graphics and JS canvas are isomorphic than read status updates from friends. Not that I don't like knowing what my friends are doing, but its rarely the case that I need up to the minute notification. Once every two weeks is fine. And if there's something big, someone will call or send email.

gst 16y ago
Me too. I have an account so that people stop asking me to create an account. However, I've disabled most of the features in the privacy options (my account doesn't even have a "wall") and the only information for visitors is my "about" box asking them to send me an email instead of a Facebook message. I currently read mails about once or twice a day, because using things like email notifications just interrupts me during work. Regularly checking Facebook updates would be too much noise to me. I have tons of interesting content that I want to read (but I don't have enough time), so why should I read uninteresting Facebook updates instead? And to socialize I'm happy to get away from my computer, instead of spending even more time before the screen.

stuaxo 16y ago

What about all the other John Dvoraks that came before ?

iwwr 16y ago
There is only one John D. Dvorak.

pothibo 16y ago

Well it makes sense to tech-savvy people since they know that the other services exist. Ask your mum and your aunt to name 5 other service other than YouTube and Facebook... They probably won't even be able to name 1.

jpwagner 16y ago

Facebook is actually the logical end-point of what AOL should have become huh?? he seems to advocate never using a new thing.

AtTheLast 16y ago
Facebook seems more about connections and communication. AOL is all about sending me CD's everyday trying to get me to sign up for their service.
wccrawford 16y ago
Once upon a time, AOL was a BBS. What drives a BBS is community. They worked really hard on that aspect and even had messaging between users, forums, games, and more. Then, they decided they were an ISP instead and started claiming such. People forgot all the other services they offered and focused on the millions of frisbies they gave out. Facebook is all about community, with messaging, forums, games, event planning, and more. So yeah, it's what AOL should have been, but wasn't.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

joeyh 16y ago

Weird that he says Geocities was part of AOL. AFAIK, they were never corporately connected.

sdkmvx 16y ago

He makes the point that it's a closed system, then goes on to argue that if he ‘want[s] a personal webpage with all sorts of information about [himself], [he'll] go to Wordpress.com and make one.’ He has completely missed the interaction part of Facebook—the one part that attracts people, seeing as how people are social by nature. He mentions Wordpress as an alternative to the closed nature of Facebook, but he doesn't seem to realize that Wordpress is also a third party who would then have his data.

vessenes 16y ago

Reading Dvorak posts is like watching the slow-motion trainwreck. I thought to myself, "I wonder what idiotic thing John Dvorak is going to say this time?" And did I click? Yes, Yes I did. It strikes me that you have to be a pretty serious egotist/narcissist to think that Facebook is all about publishing, as opposed to all about connecting with people in your life. And, that mental profile would also suit someone who is happily, aggressively, FREQUENTLY wrong about technology, but doesn't mind making a career out of writing about it. I'm still going to read his occasional missives, though, I just can't help myself.

revorad 16y ago

Dear HNers who upvoted this article, this is EXACTLY the kind of crap which makes this place suck. Please use the flag button, not upvote on trolls. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
powellc 16y ago
Amen! Just another troll post from PC Mag.

revorad 16y ago

guywithabike 16y ago

If you suffix every other sentence with "... because I have no friends." it makes a whole lot more sense.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

brlewis 16y ago

Facebook used to be a closed system, and might become one again someday. But for now the graph API makes it an open system.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
- brlewis 16y ago
  Are you saying the graph API isn't open enough? How, specifically?

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

noelchurchill 16y ago

Facebook is like living in a large city. People are attracted to NYC because there is a lot going on there, they know people there, etc. Saying "Why use facebook when I have the whole internet" is similar to saying "Why live in the city when I can live in any number of other small towns." Sure, some people aren't big city people, and they like the smaller tighter rural communities. The city can belittle someone's ego and make them feel small and insignificant. There are always going to be the "city people" and the "non-city people." On Facebook Dvorak is just another user, but on pcmag.com he is an important journalist who's opinions are valued. Easy to see why he prefers one over the other.

iterationx 16y ago

Facebook isn't a closed system because you can write apps for it. It's an application platform which I think (caveat prediction) will become web infrastructure. The social layer will be integrated with everything. FB could screw it up and someone else could pull it off, but at the moment it looks like they will win.

wglb 16y ago

(This article is not really HN worthy). Dvorak has been oversimplifying since the keyboard was invented. If you have family or friends that don't live in the technical echosphere that we all do here, it is a good way to keep in touch with them. Even my mother, who is a wizzard at Word Perfect Reveal Codes isn't going to build a web site to share her poetry. I am sensing strains of the Priesthood mentality here.

bradleyland 16y ago

Similar ideas to what Simon at Buddy Cloud expressed: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2076932 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2076932 If you look back over the history of many technologies, you will see that closed often precedes open. Profit motive is a powerful force, but it is frequently overwhelmed by the motivation of freedom.

ebun 16y ago

"Which begs the question as to why anyone would use Facebook when it is essentially AOL done right?" I'm often taken aback when I hear/read these kind of comments. It shows the gulf between most web users and a minority of techies.

Aloisius 16y ago

I've deleted my Facebook account. And you know what? It didn't impact my life in the slightest. I was never a huge voyeur, so I never really got a lot of value out of Facebook anyway.

meadhikari 16y ago

I was just curious on what this man had to say about Twitter and I found this Twitter is the New CB radio http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2351932,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2351932,00.asp