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It frustrates me that the takeaway of this post, and the implicit conclusion of many software designers, is "keep it extremely simple, or two thirds of the popu

It frustrates me that the takeaway of this post, and the implicit conclusion of many software designers, is "keep it extremely simple, or two thirds of the population can’t use your design." I think a better conclusion is "if these skills are important, design software which aids in and rewards the development of them." If your software is designed with some UX which is hyper-optimized to get users to do some small handful of tasks you thought of, instead of designed as a simple tool they can understand, then it shouldn't be surprising if users don't learn to do anything except those tasks.

scarface74 7y ago
Should I also learn how to repair my car instead of just taking it to the dealer? It’s called specialization of labor. Most of us make an above average wage dealing with computers and pay other people to know things we don’t know.
- mquander 7y ago
  What specialist does the labor get offloaded to, if someone doesn't know how to keep track of their data, doesn't know how to do simple research on the Internet, or doesn't understand how to secure their computer? Instead, people just lose their data, believe false things, and get pwned.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    You pay someone to do it. My uncle has owned a car repair shop for 30+ years and he pays someone to do all of the office work. Your expertise is someone else’s “undifferentiated heavy lifting” no matter what field you’re in.
    - chrischen 7y ago
      Well that person doing the repair work isn’t going to use some dumbed down tools. Somebody has to specialize. Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance.
      - eru 7y ago
        > Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance. Yes and no. On the one hand, as early cars become more common, more people had to deal with them. But on the other hand, cars became simpler to use over time. Tinkering with your car used to be a hobby of many people and a necessity. These days, there's not much user servicing left. (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?) Gas station pumps have also become much easier to use. It requires some intention and a minimum amount of skill to overfill your tank these days. Similar considerations apply to using computers. Starting your spreadsheet by typing something in the DOS prompt used to be how things were done. These days, vastly more people are expected to be at least somewhat familiar with spreadsheets--it's no longer something to highlight in your CV--but starting the program used to do so has become simpler. Similar countervailing developments have been common since at least the industrial revolution. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling
        smileysteve 7y ago
        > (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?) Most cars do have sensors for this, but they often fail, and even if they're working fine, tell you at a warning level, not at a full level. If you want to be a prepared driver you'd check your fluids regularly, but especially before long trips; The bonus is that the sensors can't tell you that your oil is prematurely dirty, so just by looking at it, you get more information. This reminds me of Obama recommending people check their tires; yes, modern vehicles have tpms, but if they heed the warning, it often doesn't come on until a tire is significantly low ~20%.
        scarface74 7y ago
        There are so many mechanics that will do free or low cost inspections for things like that, why wouldn’t I do that before going on a long trip? Speaking of which, that’s yet another thing we pay for other people to do. If it’s a trip longer than about five hours we are flying or if we are being cheap and it’s not too far (around 6 to 7 hours) and if possible, taking the MegaBus.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- chongli 7y ago
  I see the car analogy used regularly and I think it’s completely off base. A much better analogy for computer skills is literacy and numeracy. We don’t tell people “don’t bother learning how to read, you can listen to audio books on audible!” just as we shouldn’t tell people that computer programming is only for professional software developers (or anything else involving intensive skill mastery related to computers).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Spivak 7y ago
    Being able to use a computer is like being able to drive a car. After a little practice and learning a few rules most cars are pretty easy to just get in and drive. It takes a little more effort to learn to drive stick, and formula one cars are only driven by professionals. Computer programming is like building, modding, or repairing your car — you can learn but it’s an activity done basically only by hobbyists and professionals. Troubleshooting computer issues is like car maintenance. Everyone can fill the tank with gas, most people can change a tire, fewer can change their oil, and fewer still can jump a battery.
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      Pretty much right. Yes its useful for almost anyone to know programming but we can't learn everything in the world that's useful. A carpenter is probably thinking its crazy I can't build my own bench and have to pay loads more for someone else to do it.
      - Swizec 7y ago
        You can make a bench with 4 cinder blocks and a plank. Now a good bench ... I guess the equivalent in computing would be spreadsheets? You can automate and build awesome things but god help you if you wanna move it somewhere else
        7y ago
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Yes, unpopular opinion these days, but car owners should really know how to do at least the bare minimum of basic car maintenance. I'm not talking about replacing the suspension or re-building the transmission, but things like changing oil, brake pads, and refilling washer fluid. The very basic basics. Not only does it save you money (who wants to have a mechanic do something for $200 that you can do for $30 + a little time) but knowledge of a tool you use every day is valuable in and of itself. Wow, -2 in 40 minutes. I knew unpopular but is it that controversial a view??
  - wildrhythms 7y ago
    I live in an apartment complex and park my car on the premises. I'm not allowed to change my oil on the property due to the landlord's fear of oil left on the parking surface, don't have anywhere to safely store tools or jacks to change a brake pad, and have no where to keep a half-used container of washer fluid outside of my living space (and I'd rather not keep it in my living space). That said, I know how to do all of these things, I actually service my car and a motorcycle myself despite the apartment complex's "rules", but I think for a lot of car owners they're not in "safe" space to do their own maintenance. There's also the up front cost of buying tools. I think a lot of car owners in similar situations are relegated to taking the car to a shop for simple repairs as a result. Any advice?
    - Sharparam 7y ago
      Here we have self-service maintenance/cleaning places for cars (often at gas stations). So if you don't have your own driveway/garage you can rent some space and have access to tools and a place to do maintenance.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        I’m sure if you find a nice farmer you can also pick up a chicken, manually snap it’s neck (seen it done before, my grandfather had a farm) and cook it yourself...
- smileysteve 7y ago
  Maybe you don't need to know how to repair your car, but it's easily arguable that every car driver should recognize the things happening in their cars, otherwise, they are an unsafe driver. On the simple side of things, is your check engine light on, are you dragging your air dams, are your lights on, do your tires have any tread. Slightly more complex, recognizing that your car is over heating, recognizing burning oil, brakes on the wear pad. More complex, is the suspension connected to the body? What's scary is the number of ride share drivers (and taxi cabs) that continue (are allowed to?) drive with some of these serious issues happening. even in states like California with vehicle inspections.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    If my check engine light is on, it shows up right on the panel, I take it to the car mechanic. How much do you have to “know” to see a light? Most problems with cars (except maybe tread), you get some combination of an indicator light, something smells funny, sounds funny, or your car drives differently. In either case, you either take it to a mechanic or if it can’t be driven, you get it towed.
    - asdff 7y ago
      Take a look at the top posts on /r/justrolledintotheshop and you will see plenty of examples of people who drive with their fingers in their ears and the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree. And those are only the cars that people begrugingly have brought in, probably 10 more like that on the road for every one in the shop.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        These people know something is wrong with their car and probably couldn’t afford to get it fixed. No one chooses to not get their car fixed if they have money in the bank to take it to the car dealership.
        smileysteve 7y ago
- dusted 7y ago
  Yes, you absolutely should. And they should make cars easier for everyone to repair too.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Should I also know how to do my own plumbing and electrical work? Carpentry? Go out and hunt and grow a garden?
    - dusted 7y ago
      Absolutely. We should strive to master our surroundings. One thing is choosing not to repair your car today, because you have other things that give you greater value, another thing is not having the choice to repair it because you don't know how to. At a minimum, a human should know basic operating principles, repair and maintenance of their machines and buildings. Unfortunately, as most people chose to remain ignorant to their surroundings, manufactures get away with making devices less and less serviceable.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        At what level should I know it? There is a famous essay “I pencil” that posits no one person knows how to create a pencil (http://www.joshharness.com/2012/10/nobody-knows-how-to-make-pencil.html http://www.joshharness.com/2012/10/nobody-knows-how-to-make-...)
        wrycoder 7y ago
        I can tell you how to make a year's supply of charcoal in a couple of hours. Or, how to use a knife to make a writing quill from a feather, and how to make a lifetime supply of ink from household materials. Making a pencil is a highly fragmented industrial process, even at the 19th century level. Just making the "lead" is quite sophisticated. There is much satisfaction in being a maker - or at least being more than just a consumer.
- njharman 7y ago
  Repairing car is comparable to debugging/writing software. You should know how to operate car, park on hill, know what all controls and indicators do, etc. a power user should know how to check fluid levels, tire pressure, be able to comprehend maint schedule and have it performed. Most Americans are as knowledgeable about how to operate their automobil e as they are about software. That is, not very.
t34543 7y ago
I’ve got 20 years in tech and I find products like Snapchat extremely difficult to use. It’s NOT intuitive at all. Is it just me, or is it terrible?
- ok_coo 7y ago
  Mobile app discoverability is terrible, it’s not just you. I guess you’re just supposed to monkey around with it and hope you find new features.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Mobile app discoverability could be great, but we're currently going through this excruciatingly hostile minimalist design fad where every feature needs to be hidden away out of sight, with barely understandable affordances to get at them. > [recommendations in the article] > * Little or no navigation required to access the information or commands required to solve the problem > * Few steps and a minimal number of operators > * Problem resolution requiring the respondent to apply explicit criteria only (no implicit criteria) I think this is telling us what to do. Stop hiding things away behind hamburger menus and replacing interactive, rich dialogs with a chain of single-choice dialogs. Don't hide context or make assumptions. I've heard designers say things like "you should have a maximum of one decision on the screen at once" and "you should provide a maximum of two choices for each decision." But why? It's just more steps, more hidden assumptions, longer dialog chains for the user to navigate and more complicated logic (e.g. handling "go back" in the middle of one of these chains). But hey, I don't have a fine art degree so my input about a good user experience is worthless.
- Spivak 7y ago
  I think by most standards Snapchat’s UX would be judged pretty harshly. But it has a strong following because at its core it’s a power user app. Making features/actions discoverable takes up UI space that Snapchat almost entirely hides behind swipes or unlabeled buttons. Snapchat’s philosophy is interesting because it’s designed for people who already know how to use Snapchat. It actually increased the social aspect a bit because most everyone probably has a story or two of being shown how to do something by someone else.
Spooky23 7y ago
Conclusions made by design folks are difficult for me to take seriously, because the journey mapping and design process is usually based on consensus on desired behaviors. Design isn’t science, it’s usually a process framework. Best case it’s an 80/20 situation. Few design teams have a mandate or desire to dive into the 20%. They love to remove “distractions” and usually don’t understand that tasks that happen once a quarter are often as important as tasks that are done 3x per day. I’ll use iMovie as an example. It’s a well-designed, great app and incredibly intuitive... if you are on a path/experience that was designed for you. My then-5 year old could make shockingly well done little movies without the ability to meaningfully read. But... if you need to step off the path, it’s a cliff. When I was in college, in the 90s, I worked at a big box retailer selling computers and similar gear. Their ERP was an AS/400, text based system that was not at all intuitive, but with about 30 minutes of training was usable. After a few weeks was a trusty tool that could be adeptly and efficiently wielded. The difference was that it was a tool, and the practitioners of the tool could make changes to how the tools were used to get shot done.

scarface74 7y ago

Should I also learn how to repair my car instead of just taking it to the dealer? It’s called specialization of labor. Most of us make an above average wage dealing with computers and pay other people to know things we don’t know.

mquander 7y ago
What specialist does the labor get offloaded to, if someone doesn't know how to keep track of their data, doesn't know how to do simple research on the Internet, or doesn't understand how to secure their computer? Instead, people just lose their data, believe false things, and get pwned.
- scarface74 7y ago
  You pay someone to do it. My uncle has owned a car repair shop for 30+ years and he pays someone to do all of the office work. Your expertise is someone else’s “undifferentiated heavy lifting” no matter what field you’re in.
  - chrischen 7y ago
    Well that person doing the repair work isn’t going to use some dumbed down tools. Somebody has to specialize. Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance.
    - eru 7y ago
      > Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance. Yes and no. On the one hand, as early cars become more common, more people had to deal with them. But on the other hand, cars became simpler to use over time. Tinkering with your car used to be a hobby of many people and a necessity. These days, there's not much user servicing left. (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?) Gas station pumps have also become much easier to use. It requires some intention and a minimum amount of skill to overfill your tank these days. Similar considerations apply to using computers. Starting your spreadsheet by typing something in the DOS prompt used to be how things were done. These days, vastly more people are expected to be at least somewhat familiar with spreadsheets--it's no longer something to highlight in your CV--but starting the program used to do so has become simpler. Similar countervailing developments have been common since at least the industrial revolution. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling
      - smileysteve 7y ago
        > (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?) Most cars do have sensors for this, but they often fail, and even if they're working fine, tell you at a warning level, not at a full level. If you want to be a prepared driver you'd check your fluids regularly, but especially before long trips; The bonus is that the sensors can't tell you that your oil is prematurely dirty, so just by looking at it, you get more information. This reminds me of Obama recommending people check their tires; yes, modern vehicles have tpms, but if they heed the warning, it often doesn't come on until a tire is significantly low ~20%.
        scarface74 7y ago
        There are so many mechanics that will do free or low cost inspections for things like that, why wouldn’t I do that before going on a long trip? Speaking of which, that’s yet another thing we pay for other people to do. If it’s a trip longer than about five hours we are flying or if we are being cheap and it’s not too far (around 6 to 7 hours) and if possible, taking the MegaBus.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
chongli 7y ago
I see the car analogy used regularly and I think it’s completely off base. A much better analogy for computer skills is literacy and numeracy. We don’t tell people “don’t bother learning how to read, you can listen to audio books on audible!” just as we shouldn’t tell people that computer programming is only for professional software developers (or anything else involving intensive skill mastery related to computers).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Spivak 7y ago
  Being able to use a computer is like being able to drive a car. After a little practice and learning a few rules most cars are pretty easy to just get in and drive. It takes a little more effort to learn to drive stick, and formula one cars are only driven by professionals. Computer programming is like building, modding, or repairing your car — you can learn but it’s an activity done basically only by hobbyists and professionals. Troubleshooting computer issues is like car maintenance. Everyone can fill the tank with gas, most people can change a tire, fewer can change their oil, and fewer still can jump a battery.
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    Pretty much right. Yes its useful for almost anyone to know programming but we can't learn everything in the world that's useful. A carpenter is probably thinking its crazy I can't build my own bench and have to pay loads more for someone else to do it.
    - Swizec 7y ago
      You can make a bench with 4 cinder blocks and a plank. Now a good bench ... I guess the equivalent in computing would be spreadsheets? You can automate and build awesome things but god help you if you wanna move it somewhere else
      - 7y ago
ryandrake 7y ago
Yes, unpopular opinion these days, but car owners should really know how to do at least the bare minimum of basic car maintenance. I'm not talking about replacing the suspension or re-building the transmission, but things like changing oil, brake pads, and refilling washer fluid. The very basic basics. Not only does it save you money (who wants to have a mechanic do something for $200 that you can do for $30 + a little time) but knowledge of a tool you use every day is valuable in and of itself. Wow, -2 in 40 minutes. I knew unpopular but is it that controversial a view??
- wildrhythms 7y ago
  I live in an apartment complex and park my car on the premises. I'm not allowed to change my oil on the property due to the landlord's fear of oil left on the parking surface, don't have anywhere to safely store tools or jacks to change a brake pad, and have no where to keep a half-used container of washer fluid outside of my living space (and I'd rather not keep it in my living space). That said, I know how to do all of these things, I actually service my car and a motorcycle myself despite the apartment complex's "rules", but I think for a lot of car owners they're not in "safe" space to do their own maintenance. There's also the up front cost of buying tools. I think a lot of car owners in similar situations are relegated to taking the car to a shop for simple repairs as a result. Any advice?
  - Sharparam 7y ago
    Here we have self-service maintenance/cleaning places for cars (often at gas stations). So if you don't have your own driveway/garage you can rent some space and have access to tools and a place to do maintenance.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I’m sure if you find a nice farmer you can also pick up a chicken, manually snap it’s neck (seen it done before, my grandfather had a farm) and cook it yourself...
smileysteve 7y ago
Maybe you don't need to know how to repair your car, but it's easily arguable that every car driver should recognize the things happening in their cars, otherwise, they are an unsafe driver. On the simple side of things, is your check engine light on, are you dragging your air dams, are your lights on, do your tires have any tread. Slightly more complex, recognizing that your car is over heating, recognizing burning oil, brakes on the wear pad. More complex, is the suspension connected to the body? What's scary is the number of ride share drivers (and taxi cabs) that continue (are allowed to?) drive with some of these serious issues happening. even in states like California with vehicle inspections.
- scarface74 7y ago
  If my check engine light is on, it shows up right on the panel, I take it to the car mechanic. How much do you have to “know” to see a light? Most problems with cars (except maybe tread), you get some combination of an indicator light, something smells funny, sounds funny, or your car drives differently. In either case, you either take it to a mechanic or if it can’t be driven, you get it towed.
  - asdff 7y ago
    Take a look at the top posts on /r/justrolledintotheshop and you will see plenty of examples of people who drive with their fingers in their ears and the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree. And those are only the cars that people begrugingly have brought in, probably 10 more like that on the road for every one in the shop.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      These people know something is wrong with their car and probably couldn’t afford to get it fixed. No one chooses to not get their car fixed if they have money in the bank to take it to the car dealership.
      - smileysteve 7y ago
dusted 7y ago
Yes, you absolutely should. And they should make cars easier for everyone to repair too.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Should I also know how to do my own plumbing and electrical work? Carpentry? Go out and hunt and grow a garden?
  - dusted 7y ago
    Absolutely. We should strive to master our surroundings. One thing is choosing not to repair your car today, because you have other things that give you greater value, another thing is not having the choice to repair it because you don't know how to. At a minimum, a human should know basic operating principles, repair and maintenance of their machines and buildings. Unfortunately, as most people chose to remain ignorant to their surroundings, manufactures get away with making devices less and less serviceable.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      At what level should I know it? There is a famous essay “I pencil” that posits no one person knows how to create a pencil (http://www.joshharness.com/2012/10/nobody-knows-how-to-make-pencil.html http://www.joshharness.com/2012/10/nobody-knows-how-to-make-...)
      - wrycoder 7y ago
        I can tell you how to make a year's supply of charcoal in a couple of hours. Or, how to use a knife to make a writing quill from a feather, and how to make a lifetime supply of ink from household materials. Making a pencil is a highly fragmented industrial process, even at the 19th century level. Just making the "lead" is quite sophisticated. There is much satisfaction in being a maker - or at least being more than just a consumer.
njharman 7y ago
Repairing car is comparable to debugging/writing software. You should know how to operate car, park on hill, know what all controls and indicators do, etc. a power user should know how to check fluid levels, tire pressure, be able to comprehend maint schedule and have it performed. Most Americans are as knowledgeable about how to operate their automobil e as they are about software. That is, not very.

t34543 7y ago

I’ve got 20 years in tech and I find products like Snapchat extremely difficult to use. It’s NOT intuitive at all. Is it just me, or is it terrible?

ok_coo 7y ago
Mobile app discoverability is terrible, it’s not just you. I guess you’re just supposed to monkey around with it and hope you find new features.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Mobile app discoverability could be great, but we're currently going through this excruciatingly hostile minimalist design fad where every feature needs to be hidden away out of sight, with barely understandable affordances to get at them. > [recommendations in the article] > * Little or no navigation required to access the information or commands required to solve the problem > * Few steps and a minimal number of operators > * Problem resolution requiring the respondent to apply explicit criteria only (no implicit criteria) I think this is telling us what to do. Stop hiding things away behind hamburger menus and replacing interactive, rich dialogs with a chain of single-choice dialogs. Don't hide context or make assumptions. I've heard designers say things like "you should have a maximum of one decision on the screen at once" and "you should provide a maximum of two choices for each decision." But why? It's just more steps, more hidden assumptions, longer dialog chains for the user to navigate and more complicated logic (e.g. handling "go back" in the middle of one of these chains). But hey, I don't have a fine art degree so my input about a good user experience is worthless.
Spivak 7y ago
I think by most standards Snapchat’s UX would be judged pretty harshly. But it has a strong following because at its core it’s a power user app. Making features/actions discoverable takes up UI space that Snapchat almost entirely hides behind swipes or unlabeled buttons. Snapchat’s philosophy is interesting because it’s designed for people who already know how to use Snapchat. It actually increased the social aspect a bit because most everyone probably has a story or two of being shown how to do something by someone else.

Spooky23 7y ago

Conclusions made by design folks are difficult for me to take seriously, because the journey mapping and design process is usually based on consensus on desired behaviors. Design isn’t science, it’s usually a process framework. Best case it’s an 80/20 situation. Few design teams have a mandate or desire to dive into the 20%. They love to remove “distractions” and usually don’t understand that tasks that happen once a quarter are often as important as tasks that are done 3x per day. I’ll use iMovie as an example. It’s a well-designed, great app and incredibly intuitive... if you are on a path/experience that was designed for you. My then-5 year old could make shockingly well done little movies without the ability to meaningfully read. But... if you need to step off the path, it’s a cliff. When I was in college, in the 90s, I worked at a big box retailer selling computers and similar gear. Their ERP was an AS/400, text based system that was not at all intuitive, but with about 30 minutes of training was usable. After a few weeks was a trusty tool that could be adeptly and efficiently wielded. The difference was that it was a tool, and the practitioners of the tool could make changes to how the tools were used to get shot done.