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> No one is forcing you to use other people's best practices This is only true if you only work on your own code or you call all the technical shots. Part of

> No one is forcing you to use other people's best practices This is only true if you only work on your own code or you call all the technical shots. Part of working with other people is coming into agreement on how things are done. When you're working on someone else's code, you play by their rules. Nobody forces you to do this, but if you don't you're generally not someone most programmers would want to work with, professionally or privately. This tends to occur on the job when you get something dumped on you with a time constraint. Your options are to use other people's practices, argue that yours are better (which usually requires a restructure and pushes back the time constraint), or quit. Nobody forces you to go for the first option but the second two are the more difficult paths.

brown9-2 16y ago
But in this case of "on the job", isn't your real problem with the employer's best practices and standards? Surely there are lots of people and teams out there writing Java in ways that aren't insanely stupid. Teams can use even the most pristine language and introduce a lot of dumb ideas and practices into it. I think you're beating up on the language unfairly.
- grayrest 16y ago
  > Surely there are lots of people and teams out there writing Java in ways that aren't insanely stupid. This is true. I know of a number in Java and a lot more in JVM languages. To be clear, this isn't about my work since I rarely have to write Java and my coworkers are smart so the code is relatively good. > I think you're beating up on the language unfairly. J2EE was a travesty. Java class hiearchies are ridiculous. The codification and practice of design patterns is excessive. XML gets used all over the place for all sorts of things. None are required for the language, but they're encoded into the best practices of the community. The whole point of best practices is to help people avoid dumb things, but somehow the Java community got it wrong. I blame the consulting industry and the design goal of trying to protect people from themselves. If you love Java, are super productive in it, and your programs blow everything else away, power to you. I know two guys who love Java and are faster than I am at implementing an algorithm even with the LoC advantage I get in my preferred languages. The language is what it is with advantages and disadvantages. My inability to get over its flaws shouldn't hinder your joy of programming.

brown9-2 16y ago

But in this case of "on the job", isn't your real problem with the employer's best practices and standards? Surely there are lots of people and teams out there writing Java in ways that aren't insanely stupid. Teams can use even the most pristine language and introduce a lot of dumb ideas and practices into it. I think you're beating up on the language unfairly.

grayrest 16y ago
> Surely there are lots of people and teams out there writing Java in ways that aren't insanely stupid. This is true. I know of a number in Java and a lot more in JVM languages. To be clear, this isn't about my work since I rarely have to write Java and my coworkers are smart so the code is relatively good. > I think you're beating up on the language unfairly. J2EE was a travesty. Java class hiearchies are ridiculous. The codification and practice of design patterns is excessive. XML gets used all over the place for all sorts of things. None are required for the language, but they're encoded into the best practices of the community. The whole point of best practices is to help people avoid dumb things, but somehow the Java community got it wrong. I blame the consulting industry and the design goal of trying to protect people from themselves. If you love Java, are super productive in it, and your programs blow everything else away, power to you. I know two guys who love Java and are faster than I am at implementing an algorithm even with the LoC advantage I get in my preferred languages. The language is what it is with advantages and disadvantages. My inability to get over its flaws shouldn't hinder your joy of programming.