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What solution do you propose?
by tristanstcyr 7y ago
What solution do you propose?
- oh_sigh 7y agoInvoluntary mental health treatment.
- henryfjordan 7y agoUnder the UN Declaration on the Rights of Disabled Persons, that's unethical. Also historically "Involuntary mental health treatment" in the US has not been humane. We should strive to have compassion for the homeless and ill, not imprison them.
- sincerely 7y agoSomething something your right to compassion ends where your fist hits my face something something
- throwaway-hn123 7y agosomething something you're an ignorant dickhead who is probably a snivelling coward something something
- GhostVII 7y agoYou can give people a choice between either being prosecuted as a mentally healthy person, or getting mental health treatment. It's not involuntary but gives mentally disabled people a way to get help.
- zdragnar 7y ago> a choice It's a nice thought, and should probably be an option, but it won't be sufficient on its own, I don't think. Would it surprise you to learn that many with severe mental illnesses do not voluntarily undergo treatment? A friend worked in a job training and support program, first with chronically homeless, and then with mentally disabled specifically. The single biggest obstacle most faced was their own unwillingness to accept or stick with treatment. The homeless in particular that this friend worked with were untrusting of any program that might potentially hinder their autonomy- so they would show up for the free bus cards, food and job training, but any hint of medical support and they would disappear for fear of being taken off the street and locked up. Most, given the choice between jail or treatment, would choose jail, simply because there was a defined time period that they would get their freedom back, plus no pills.
- oh_sigh 7y agoYou're not giving them involuntary mental health treatment because you deem them ill - you do it because they are mentally ill AND have kicked a nurse in the chest and threw feces at others.
- closeparen 7y agoIs carte blanche to wander the streets of San Francisco and menace pedestrians really more humane or compassionate?
- nikanj 7y agoHow about some compassion for the victims, too? They get spit at, insulted, their belongings stolen, and their property vandalized. And we mostly guilt them for not turning the other cheek more gracefully.
- nickles 7y ago> Involuntary mental health treatment. It can be dangerous to give governments carte blanche to do this... > Sluggish schizophrenia or slow progressive schizophrenia was a diagnostic category used in the Soviet Union to describe what was claimed to be a form of schizophrenia characterized by a slowly progressive course; it was diagnosed even in patients who showed no symptoms of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders, on the assumption that these symptoms would appear later. The diagnosis has long been discredited because of its scientific inadequacy and its use as a means of confining dissenters. It is considered a prime example of the political abuse of psychiatry in the Soviet Union. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia
- oh_sigh 7y agoI'm talking about after they've already broken the law - not just when some doctor declares they are ill. I assumed intentionally, violently kicking a person in the chest to the point where they medical intervention is illegal.
- tomcam 7y agoHow about being prosecuted for assault and battery?
- fzeroracer 7y agoThink about this for a moment. You prosecute someone that's mentally ill and send them to jail. Now the jail has to deal with violent outbursts and is generally not equipped to handle people on a medical level like that. Our prison system is designed to punish people, so those people if they get out of jail fall back into the same issues. The answer to solve these problems is better preventative care. Meaning better healthcare for vulnerable populations, better solutions to housing for the homeless and so forth. Unfortunately solutions like this require things like increased taxes or recognizing the problem exists and many would prefer to just sweep it under the rug for people in emergency rooms and jails to deal with.
- creato 7y agoOnce someone commits a serious crime like battery, they need to either go to jail, or be involuntarily committed to some other kind of institution.
- fzeroracer 7y agoExcept, again, that doesn't solve the problem. They go to jail for a year or two, become a handful for people in prison to handle (whom are not equipped to handle people with severe mental illness), are released and then the cycle continues. Or even then, those inmates are admitted to those same hospitals because where else do you think people get proper treatment? None of this discussion solves the actual problem at hand, it just deals with the symptoms. Eventually the problem will become uncontrollable if you just ignore the actual damn reasons why people with said issues end up becoming homeless or violent in the first place.
- closeparen 7y agoWhen the symptoms include unacceptable impacts on other people, they still have to be dealt with. We can and should chip away at risk factors, but the human brain is wickedly complex and we're never going to get 100% health and behavior within norms. Just like we can and should encourage exercise and healthy diets, but we're still going to need the medical system.
- GhettoMaestro 7y agoLocking up crazy fuckers. Shocking idea I know.
- ars 7y agoHow do you know in advance who they are?
- timbit42 7y agoDon't need to.
- GhettoMaestro 7y agoYou don't. But after a certain number of violent interactions that point to a mental health, I wager to say it does not take a rocket scientist to draw a conclusion.
- jacobwilliamroy 7y agoYou really shouldn't incarcerate an animal unless you're prepared to accept the responsibility of taking care of that animal. A human needs food, water, shelter, clothing, medical services. If you're holding a bunch of humans in one place, against their will, you're gonna need to use force which means you're also buying weapons, guards, training for the guards, facilities for the guards. In order to coordinate all this spending you need computers, administrators, office spaces. Because insanity is usually incurable, you would be taking care of these people from the date of their incarceration, for the rest of their natural lives. Are you ready for that responsibility? Is anybody? My community has been routinely fucking this up for decades and they have a couple hundred-million dollars to play with. What about yours?
- thrower123 7y agoIf an animal is violent and a threat to others, you put it down, you don't keep it in a cage forever. Generally, people get uncomfortable with that idea when it is extrapolated to people.
- wisty 7y agoThere's 3 main factors talked about in deterrence theory - severity, certainty, and speed. The US generally has severe enough punishments, and increases do little to add deterrence (and the downsides then take over). Certainty and speed are weak though. People drive in a civilised manner because if you don't, a cop will write you out a ticket. But if people behave in an uncivilised manner in a more criminal way, it's actually unconstitutional to have swift and certain penalties. People are fine arguing that the 2nd amendment was more appropriate for the era of muskets. Maybe the 5th is more appropriate for an era where overly harsh sentences were applied to political prisoners through the use of torture.
- nordsieck 7y ago> What solution do you propose? Ban those people from emergency services.
- TheGallopedHigh 7y agoThis would not be a good measure of society.
- austincheney 7y agoThe best measure of society is compromise and social valor. Those who have neither deserve none.
- happytoexplain 7y agoI can't tolerate the concept that people don't "deserve" basic things like health treatment based on their behavior. It's sick to me, and a hallmark of a sick society.
- thrower123 7y agoHealth treatment isn't really a basic thing. I find it really bizarre how people keep trying to write in more and more luxury goods as god-given rights. Whenever I think of rights, it is things that society and other people must not do, rather than something that other people must provide for me.
- kwhitefoot 7y agoThink of it as a duty. Love thy neighbour and all that.
- austincheney 7y agoYou are saying people deserve a certain level of care regardless of their harassing behavior while waiting for such care and that you are utterly intolerant of any disagreement. A sick society is one that cannot handle minor disagreements.
- brightball 7y agoSecurity personnel at hospitals who have the right to restrain violent patients until police arrive, while continuing to treat them if necessary. If nothing else, it should be clear that the behavior will result in immediate corrective action. If it’s not, then there’s no deterrent at all.
- sandworm101 7y agoThe mentally ill do not respond to rationality. The threat of police violence means nothing to someone in crisis sever enough to be in an ER.
- brightball 7y agoBut the ability of hospital staff to feel protected is still a lot better than the alternative.
- candiodari 7y agoCome on. Let's take the definition of mental illness in this article: "declining communities must respond to drug abuse, homelessness, and antisocial behavior" A significant cause of drug abuse is chronic untreated pain, another significant cause is addiction CAUSED by medical treatment (the so-called opioid crisis), and of course neither homelessness nor antisocial behavior are even remotely mental problems. In short, VERY few of these people have mental illnesses other than being poor. In other words what this article is complaining about are ... economic problems that cause people to become more desperate, less willing to compromise and all of those economic problems must of course be mental illnesses. Futurama put it best: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ec2178ed-acf0-4aab-9141-2c17d11b4a4e https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ec2178ed-acf0-4aab-9141-2c17d11... All of this of course means that the vast majority of "mentally ill" do not have any problem responding rationally. Their rational responses are simply not what the clinic and/or other people want to see. For example panicked responses to not receiving treatment for a child because they have no alternative. The article reports that ERs let some people wait for weeks before any actual medical care was provided, then complain these people protest, and at some point protest strongly, even violently.
- thrower123 7y agoGetting the big guys in the white suits with butterfly nets back on staff would seem to be a good step. It's sad that we need bouncers for the ER, but here we are.