4 ms·

There is a huge pipeline problem. The only articles I've read claiming there isn't one have all been click bait pieces written by journos, not scientists or ed

There is a huge pipeline problem. The only articles I've read claiming there isn't one have all been click bait pieces written by journos, not scientists or educators, and contain no data. Just wild ass speculation about the underlying causes of the pipeline problem. Which, yeah. The pipeline problem has lots of causes. But saying "we don't have a pipeline problem because there are reasons women don't major in CS" makes no sebse. It's like saying the roof doesn't have a leaking problem because the real problem is that the gutters are clogged. I mean, sure, that's true, and we need to fix that to fix the roof. But the roof is still leaking... The only real argument I've heard that isn't prime facie flawed in this way is the argument that you don't really need college educated computer scientists to fill your SWE roles. That may be true for some roles and some companies, but lots of positions (e.g. all the ones I hire for) do require a strong education in CS and math. PhDs in STEM fields that go on to good boot camps or masters programs in CS can be good fits, but those are even more rare. And, again, even that argument has no data to back it in the articles I've read. It's just not prime facia illogical.

povertyworld 7y ago
Part of the pipeline problem is that you're not winning over the most high achieving minority students to stem. I remember there was a Mexican American woman in one of my calc classes that was easily the best student and smoked everyone else (granted, it was at a second rate state school), but when asked what she wanted to do, she said she was going to be a dentist. People coming from underrepresented backgrounds don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd, then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be outsourced or H1Bed at any minute when they could instead go to medical, dental, or law school and have a respected and well paid career.
- creato 7y ago
  > but when asked what she wanted to do, she said she was going to be a dentist. Just guessing here, but there's probably a message board and clique of web blogs about dentistry full of people discussing the underrepresentation of minorities in their field and how they can fix their "pipeline problem".
  - povertyworld 7y ago
    Out of curiosity I just googled it, and yes, there is, and it's actually more serious than lack of diversity in adtech. If there aren't enough underrepresented minority applicants at Google, they will just have to hire an overrepresented minority to spy on you instead. But if the dental schools aren't producing enough minority dentists, those communities may not have access to quality dental care.
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      > But if the dental schools aren't producing enough minority dentists, those communities may not have access to quality dental care. Sorry, I must have missed the memo that citizens can only visit dentists of the same ethnicity.
      - povertyworld 7y ago
        I'm just going by what the NYU College of Dentistry says. I assume they've thought a lot more about access to dental care than I have. >Dentists who are underrepresented minorities are more likely to serve communities in need and therefore address disparities in dental care. https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2019/september/how-pipeline-programs-can-increase-diversity-in-dentistry.html https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2019/septem...
      - goldcd 7y ago
        Indeed - although the point may still be valid. Once you're qualified, it's natural to go off and place yourself where you can make money. As an anecdotal example, in my local practice, there are a lot of Eastern-European and now Greek dentists. They're excellent and came here to make more than they would at home (and prop up the NHS whilst they're at it) - I do have a concern that there's likely to be an impact on dental care in their country of origin though. I know precisely that has happened with nursing.
      - bsanr 7y ago
        You find it difficult to believe that white dentists generally serve the communities they live in, which, by income squared with demographic data, tend to be overwhelmingly white?
- gnufied 7y ago
  > don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd, then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be outsourced or H1Bed at any minute Just wow. You are saying people with ML expertise and PhD can be replaced any minute! It just shows your own bias against certain people. I have never seen or heard anyone who brings certain deep technical expertise replaced in a minute. Hiring people is _really_ hard and hiring people with deeper technical expertise is even harder. And whats up with 6 figure number? 6 figures go as high as 100,000-999,999USD and I am not sure if being somewhere in median of it (say $200K) will be considered low income?
  - shard 7y ago
    The difference is that a premiere machine learning specialist from outside the country can work in the country immediately once immigration issues are taken care of. A premiere medical professional would still need to pass additional exams or certifications before they can work. Thus all things being equal, it is easier to replace a technologist from overseas than a medical professional.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  Your talented classmate chose a good high-paying profession - what's the problem with being a dentist exactly? > People coming from underrepresented backgrounds don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd, then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be outsourced or H1Bed at any minute when they could instead go to medical, dental, or law school and have a respected and well paid career. OK. So what? I think it's reasonable for people to decide they don't want to spend years in a PhD program. I'm having trouble parsing your argument. Are you saying the pipeline problem is due to minority students choosing other more lucrative professions? Good! What's wrong with that?
  - povertyworld 7y ago
    That is what I was saying.
- throwawayjava 7y ago
  Yes, the gutters might be clogged.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  you don't need a phd to be a very successful software engineer. a bs is plenty of education. and if you get replaced, at the very worst move to one of the job creating hubs like seattle where amazon alone wants to hire over 10,000 software engineers. There's certainly about 10k jobs in other companies here as a dev.

povertyworld 7y ago

Part of the pipeline problem is that you're not winning over the most high achieving minority students to stem. I remember there was a Mexican American woman in one of my calc classes that was easily the best student and smoked everyone else (granted, it was at a second rate state school), but when asked what she wanted to do, she said she was going to be a dentist. People coming from underrepresented backgrounds don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd, then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be outsourced or H1Bed at any minute when they could instead go to medical, dental, or law school and have a respected and well paid career.

creato 7y ago
> but when asked what she wanted to do, she said she was going to be a dentist. Just guessing here, but there's probably a message board and clique of web blogs about dentistry full of people discussing the underrepresentation of minorities in their field and how they can fix their "pipeline problem".
- povertyworld 7y ago
  Out of curiosity I just googled it, and yes, there is, and it's actually more serious than lack of diversity in adtech. If there aren't enough underrepresented minority applicants at Google, they will just have to hire an overrepresented minority to spy on you instead. But if the dental schools aren't producing enough minority dentists, those communities may not have access to quality dental care.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    > But if the dental schools aren't producing enough minority dentists, those communities may not have access to quality dental care. Sorry, I must have missed the memo that citizens can only visit dentists of the same ethnicity.
    - povertyworld 7y ago
      I'm just going by what the NYU College of Dentistry says. I assume they've thought a lot more about access to dental care than I have. >Dentists who are underrepresented minorities are more likely to serve communities in need and therefore address disparities in dental care. https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2019/september/how-pipeline-programs-can-increase-diversity-in-dentistry.html https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2019/septem...
    - goldcd 7y ago
      Indeed - although the point may still be valid. Once you're qualified, it's natural to go off and place yourself where you can make money. As an anecdotal example, in my local practice, there are a lot of Eastern-European and now Greek dentists. They're excellent and came here to make more than they would at home (and prop up the NHS whilst they're at it) - I do have a concern that there's likely to be an impact on dental care in their country of origin though. I know precisely that has happened with nursing.
    - bsanr 7y ago
      You find it difficult to believe that white dentists generally serve the communities they live in, which, by income squared with demographic data, tend to be overwhelmingly white?
gnufied 7y ago
> don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd, then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be outsourced or H1Bed at any minute Just wow. You are saying people with ML expertise and PhD can be replaced any minute! It just shows your own bias against certain people. I have never seen or heard anyone who brings certain deep technical expertise replaced in a minute. Hiring people is _really_ hard and hiring people with deeper technical expertise is even harder. And whats up with 6 figure number? 6 figures go as high as 100,000-999,999USD and I am not sure if being somewhere in median of it (say $200K) will be considered low income?
- shard 7y ago
  The difference is that a premiere machine learning specialist from outside the country can work in the country immediately once immigration issues are taken care of. A premiere medical professional would still need to pass additional exams or certifications before they can work. Thus all things being equal, it is easier to replace a technologist from overseas than a medical professional.
macspoofing 7y ago
Your talented classmate chose a good high-paying profession - what's the problem with being a dentist exactly? > People coming from underrepresented backgrounds don't want to spend 8 years doing a Phd, then a ML bootcamp, all so they can make low 6 figures at a job that could be outsourced or H1Bed at any minute when they could instead go to medical, dental, or law school and have a respected and well paid career. OK. So what? I think it's reasonable for people to decide they don't want to spend years in a PhD program. I'm having trouble parsing your argument. Are you saying the pipeline problem is due to minority students choosing other more lucrative professions? Good! What's wrong with that?
- povertyworld 7y ago
  That is what I was saying.
throwawayjava 7y ago
Yes, the gutters might be clogged.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
you don't need a phd to be a very successful software engineer. a bs is plenty of education. and if you get replaced, at the very worst move to one of the job creating hubs like seattle where amazon alone wants to hire over 10,000 software engineers. There's certainly about 10k jobs in other companies here as a dev.