4 ms·

I think it's mostly due to the phrase "toxic masculinity"; it's far too easy to misunderstand it as "masculinity is toxic" - and it doesn't help when someone as

I think it's mostly due to the phrase "toxic masculinity"; it's far too easy to misunderstand it as "masculinity is toxic" - and it doesn't help when someone asks for examples; stuff like stoicism and strength can come up. These aren't toxic. I've also spoken to people who actually believe independence (and wanting to be independent) is toxic. As this is mostly a branding problem, I want to say I recently came across the phrase "Man Box"[1]. That might be a better phrase to use? [1] Example: https://mindfulmasculinity.com/blog/manbox https://mindfulmasculinity.com/blog/manbox

thsealienbstrds 7y ago
Yep, toxic masculinity sounds like men have some kind of disease that they spread whenever they fart.
krapp 7y ago
It isn't really a branding problem. "Toxic masculinity" consists of an adjective and a noun - the former modifying the latter and therefore describing a trait which applies to a subset of the latter. It's common English. A "red apple" isn't easy to misunderstand as "all apples are red." A "hot plate" doesn't imply all plates are always hot. People who misunderstand this phrase refuse to do so even when the proper definition is given to them. It's not simple misunderstanding, as simple misunderstandings can be simply corrected, but willful ignorance. You can argue for hours and explain in excruciating detail that "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "all masculinity is toxic," providing sources to that end, and at the end of the day people will still stand firm and refuse to accept it. >As this is mostly a branding problem, I want to say I recently came across the phrase "Man Box"[1]. That might be a better phrase to use? Case in point. This site describes exactly what toxic masculinity actually is and what it actually means. But we need a "better phrase" because feminists used the other one and therefore it's tainted? Despite the fact that toxic masculinity as a term originated in the men's rights movement and as a concept is hardly alien to male culture? We can have a conversation about the possible negative aspects of male culture and masculine identity, but we just can't say the bad words with the girl cooties on them? The problem isn't branding, it's men refusing to accept that any concept they consider "feminist" could be rooted in anything but hate and misogyny. Modern male culture needs to mature and move past the victim complex its built around itself and see the common ground it has with feminists.
- viklove 7y ago
  If toxic masculinity exists, then surely there should be some examples of toxic femininity? Can you provide some such examples? Or is it only masculine traits that can be toxic?
- belorn 7y ago
  In this great alternative universe people would also not misunderstand "illegal immigration" to mean all immigrants or extremist to mean all Muslims. It's common English. Is it not odd that when people talk about deporting all the illegal immigrants, some think that implies all immigrants? When there was an executive order to ban all extremists from traveling, even judges interpreted it as a Muslim ban and they are usually pretty good with the English language. When people see explicitly hostility they interpret it as hostility. That is common English.
- subjectsigma 7y ago
  It is most certainly a branding problem. Most men hate the term 'toxic masculinity' and react poorly to it because it usually comes along with obscene generalizations about how men (all of them) are doing everything wrong and must fix themselves. Which especially makes men mad if they're discussing some close-to-home topics, like male suicide or loneliness. In that context, even though it's probably not victim-blaming and done in good faith, such comments can really come off as accusatory. Does this sound familiar to you?

thsealienbstrds 7y ago

Yep, toxic masculinity sounds like men have some kind of disease that they spread whenever they fart.

krapp 7y ago

It isn't really a branding problem. "Toxic masculinity" consists of an adjective and a noun - the former modifying the latter and therefore describing a trait which applies to a subset of the latter. It's common English. A "red apple" isn't easy to misunderstand as "all apples are red." A "hot plate" doesn't imply all plates are always hot. People who misunderstand this phrase refuse to do so even when the proper definition is given to them. It's not simple misunderstanding, as simple misunderstandings can be simply corrected, but willful ignorance. You can argue for hours and explain in excruciating detail that "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "all masculinity is toxic," providing sources to that end, and at the end of the day people will still stand firm and refuse to accept it. >As this is mostly a branding problem, I want to say I recently came across the phrase "Man Box"[1]. That might be a better phrase to use? Case in point. This site describes exactly what toxic masculinity actually is and what it actually means. But we need a "better phrase" because feminists used the other one and therefore it's tainted? Despite the fact that toxic masculinity as a term originated in the men's rights movement and as a concept is hardly alien to male culture? We can have a conversation about the possible negative aspects of male culture and masculine identity, but we just can't say the bad words with the girl cooties on them? The problem isn't branding, it's men refusing to accept that any concept they consider "feminist" could be rooted in anything but hate and misogyny. Modern male culture needs to mature and move past the victim complex its built around itself and see the common ground it has with feminists.

viklove 7y ago
If toxic masculinity exists, then surely there should be some examples of toxic femininity? Can you provide some such examples? Or is it only masculine traits that can be toxic?
belorn 7y ago
In this great alternative universe people would also not misunderstand "illegal immigration" to mean all immigrants or extremist to mean all Muslims. It's common English. Is it not odd that when people talk about deporting all the illegal immigrants, some think that implies all immigrants? When there was an executive order to ban all extremists from traveling, even judges interpreted it as a Muslim ban and they are usually pretty good with the English language. When people see explicitly hostility they interpret it as hostility. That is common English.
subjectsigma 7y ago
It is most certainly a branding problem. Most men hate the term 'toxic masculinity' and react poorly to it because it usually comes along with obscene generalizations about how men (all of them) are doing everything wrong and must fix themselves. Which especially makes men mad if they're discussing some close-to-home topics, like male suicide or loneliness. In that context, even though it's probably not victim-blaming and done in good faith, such comments can really come off as accusatory. Does this sound familiar to you?