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Vela Incident
- eccbits 7y agoEhm why is this newsworthy? It was repeatedly shown to be nothing..
- eitland 7y agoProbably showed up today because it happened exactly 40 years ago.
- NotSammyHagar 7y agoCan you give pointers to the external information showing where it's repeatedly shown to be nothing? The wikipedia description sound very plausible.
- ars 7y agoDid we read the same article in wikipedia? It quotes many many sources saying it was not a nuclear test. The quotes that it was a test were from journalists, and from people who "heard" about it. None from actual scientists who studied it.
- krisoft 7y agoVery good question. The article I'm reading says "Today, most independent researchers believe that the 1979 flash was caused by a nuclear explosion" What does yours say?
- ars 7y agoRead the details that discuss the available evidence. Not just the summary at the top which is not supported by the rest of the article.
- Buge 7y agoIt sounds like early on the US government said it was inconclusive in order to not offend South Africa and Israel. But more recently, people have been saying it was a nuclear test. > A December 2016 report by William Burr and Avner Cohen of George Washington University's National Security Archive and Nuclear Proliferation International History Project noted that the debate over the South Atlantic flash has shifted over the last few years, on the side of a man-made weapon test.[1] The National Security Archive briefing concluded: >> A Central Intelligence Agency-sponsored panel of well-respected scientists concluded that a mysterious flash detected by a U.S. Vela satellite over the South Atlantic on the night of 22 September 1979 was likely a nuclear test. > The newly released research and subsequent report was largely based upon recently declassified documents in files at the National Archives of Gerard C. Smith, a former Ambassador and special envoy on nuclear nonproliferation during Jimmy Carter's presidency.[1][60][5] Smith had once said: "I was never able to break free from the thought that the event was a joint operation between Israel and South Africa." The documents cited a June 1980 U.S. State Department report where Defense Intelligence Agency Vice Director Jack Varona had said the ensuing U.S. investigation was a "white wash, due to political considerations" based on "flimsy evidence". He added that the "weight of the evidence pointed towards a nuclear event" and cited hydroacoustic data analyzed by the Naval Research Laboratory. The data, he suggested, involved "signals ... unique to nuclear shots in a maritime environment" and emanating from the area of "shallow waters between Prince Edward and Marion Islands, south-east of South Africa".[1][5][60] > In 2018, a new study made the case for the double flash being a nuclear test.[6][7][61][62]
- salex89 7y agoThis is a fresh, possibly more substantiated article: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/22/blast-from-the-past-vela-satellite-israel-nuclear-double-flash-1979-ptbt-south-atlantic-south-africa/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/22/blast-from-the-past-vel... The interesting fact is that there is very little speak of any other nation carrying out a nuclear test. It boiled down to Israel and South Africa, or a sensor glitch/weather fenomena. Kind of fun that the two nations vere the prime suspects although officially "nothing happened".
- EdwardDiego 7y agoAlso that the 'glitch' happened to occur in very close proximity to two uninhabited* subantarctic islands controlled by South Africa - and that sheep in Western Australia showed higher levels of iodine 131. *Permanently uninhabited, but there's a research base there.
- fleetingmoments 7y agoI spent a year on that island in 2010/2011. There has never been a time where there weren't research personnel at the station since the 50s. It's very hard to believe a nuclear test would be carried out without concern for the safety of the overwintering team or without anybody noticing.
- EdwardDiego 7y ago> It's very hard to believe a nuclear test would be carried out without concern for the safety of the overwintering team or without anybody noticing. Atomic tests have routinely been carried out with scientific observers nearby, I mean, it's sorta the point of doing one. And as for people noticing, I would imagine apartheid South Africa had their own equivalent of an Official Secrets Act.
- fleetingmoments 7y agoThe team members were Meteorologists and Biologists, not nuclear observers. You can find the team and their names here. http://blogs.sun.ac.za/antarcticlegacy/reference-materials/marion-island-teams/ http://blogs.sun.ac.za/antarcticlegacy/reference-materials/m...
- dwighttk 7y ago40 yr anniversary
- ColanR 7y agoFrom the introduction: > Today, most independent researchers believe that the 1979 [Vela Incident] flash was caused by a nuclear explosion — perhaps an undeclared nuclear test carried out by South Africa and Israel.
- SiempreViernes 7y agoYeah, I think this is the best clue of how the sputh africans tested their nukes. A weird nuclear policy that one: build and test in secrecy, never tell anyone you have them unless things are really dire, and only then do a public reveal. Explain that one with deterrance theory
- baybal2 7y agoRevealing that you have a weapon as strong as the nuke is the stupidest thing to do for a military force
- mieseratte 7y agoI don’t follow, why would it be stupid?
- baybal2 7y agoBasic of military tactics, don't let enemy know what have hit them. Or better to rephrase, don't let your enemy to know what you will hit them with, moreover if the weapon you will hit them is that big. Imagine US actions if in 2003, mushroom clouds would've actually risen over major US cities, out of a sudden. If you remember, Saddam did a last minute bluff, promising "fiery death" to NYC, and Washington, and this silly bluff did make not so few people in DC to turn pale. Knowing how US politics goes, I would say US would've seriously considered rising a white flag, invariable how weak enemy's conventional forces are, in fear of additional strike.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
- jonathanlydall 7y agoI am South African but only born in ‘82 so was unaware of this incident. However, I recall an incident of a South African Airways crash in ‘87 [1] which unsubstantiated theories stated were carrying nuclear materials or something. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_2...
- yannis 7y agoI was in RSA in the early 80s. There were a lot of RSA ships doing research in the area at the time. As was the custom the issued commemorating envelopes with special postmarks at the time https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/323741168155_/Antarctica-RSA-South-Africa-cover-79-IV-24.jpg https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/323741168155_/Antarc... they were all postmarked "Neutron Research". At the time the rumour was that they were developing "a neutron bomb". This and the red mercury incidentshttps://mg.co.za/article/1995-01-20-sadf-linked-to-red-mercury https://mg.co.za/article/1995-01-20-sadf-linked-to-red-mercu... left no doubt in my mind that the tests took place.
- dmurray 7y agoHow did South Africa and Israel end up as bedfellows here? From a common love of apartheid? Apart from that, they seemed to be in quite different geopolitical positions.
- mieseratte 7y agoPerhaps ironically, Israel condemned apartheid South Africa in the UN as part of a motion on the topic in the 60s. With that said, they had early, good relations as SA recognized Israel very early on, with a Prime Minister in support of Zionism, and this remained so for decades. [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–South_Africa_relations#Early_Israeli_relations_with_apartheid_South_Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–South_Africa_relation...
- EdwardDiego 7y agoThey both ended up quite politically isolated, and yeah, strange circumstances lead to strange bedfellows.
- andrepd 7y agoThey were also pursuing nuclear weapons contrary to the wishes of the international community.
- hackermang 7y agoWhy are people so upset about you pointing the racist ways of Israel?
- trollied 7y agoOh, wow. Didn’t realise that GPS satellites were equipped with Bhangmeters, used to detect flashes caused by nuclear detonations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhangmeter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhangmeter