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> without our opt-in You do opt-in when you sign credit agreements and the like. Since all creditors require it your options are to opt-in to credit reporting

> without our opt-in You do opt-in when you sign credit agreements and the like. Since all creditors require it your options are to opt-in to credit reporting or opt-out of borrowing.

guerrilla 7y ago
> when you sign credit agreement if. So I'm not tracked if I've never taken a loan or credit card?
- Fezzik 7y ago
  That is correct, sort of. If you have never had a credit card or taken out an auto loan (or student loan, or mortgage,etc...) then there are no data points on your credit report. You are still "tracked" though - you would simply have a low credit score because there is no data to determine your credit worthiness.
propter_hoc 7y ago
Right, that's what I'm saying should be legislated to be optional. I don't think citizens should be forced to make that choice. Frankly, I think it might even be best to forbid a third party from collecting a borrower's personal information as a condition of a lender providing a personal financial product. I will in advance disagree with the objection that this would make it impossible for the lending industry to operate. I have run a lending business before, and in the industry FICO score is much less valuable than a lot of other information available to lenders (demographic, income, assets). For asset-based lending (car loans, mortgages, etc), FICO is even more irrelevant compared to factors like loan-to-value.
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- harryh 7y ago
  demographic I don't think it's a good idea to go back to the bad old days before credit reporting where whether you could get a loan or not was based on your demographics (color of your skin) rather than on the objective criterion in a credit report.
  - propter_hoc 7y ago
    Your home address, age and marital status are absolutely used by lenders in a data-driven analysis of whether you are a creditworthy borrower. I don't think that's a necessarily malevolent analysis, but it's also not true that we live in a society where your demographics are irrelevant to your ability to access credit.
    - harryh 7y ago
      Your home address, age and marital status are absolutely used by lenders Oh I know. The world isn't perfect in this respect, but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be thanks to credit reporting. It has been an incredibly powerful tool for social justice. Outlawing it as a tool would be a very large step backwards.
      - propter_hoc 7y ago
        I honestly think it would be overall better for us. Like I said, FICO is a very weak signal that isn't given much weight in the adjudication process; and your lenders are using these other signals I listed anyway, so the negative social effects you speak of are already happening. So, the only net outcome of automatic, forced credit reporting is that third party companies exist that collect, misuse and profit off of citizens' personal data. Anyway, rather than a draconian approach of outlawing credit bureaus, I think a law making third-party credit reporting optional rather than required is the right thing to push for, and more realistic than a nonstarter suggestion like nationalizing the credit bureaus.
  - asdff 7y ago
    How about just looking at inflow and outflow? "Gee he's got 50k in high interest student loans and makes 30k a year, but boy he had that amex for 5 years! Let's give him a 5k limit to toy around with." Raising your credit rating is literally a game. There are even subreddits devoted to the topic filled with pages and pages of strategy that looks deranged on the outset.

> without our opt-in You do opt-in when you sign credit agreements and the like. Since all creditors require it your options are to opt-in to credit reporting or opt-out of borrowing.

guerrilla 7y ago

> when you sign credit agreement if. So I'm not tracked if I've never taken a loan or credit card?

Fezzik 7y ago
That is correct, sort of. If you have never had a credit card or taken out an auto loan (or student loan, or mortgage,etc...) then there are no data points on your credit report. You are still "tracked" though - you would simply have a low credit score because there is no data to determine your credit worthiness.

propter_hoc 7y ago

Right, that's what I'm saying should be legislated to be optional. I don't think citizens should be forced to make that choice. Frankly, I think it might even be best to forbid a third party from collecting a borrower's personal information as a condition of a lender providing a personal financial product. I will in advance disagree with the objection that this would make it impossible for the lending industry to operate. I have run a lending business before, and in the industry FICO score is much less valuable than a lot of other information available to lenders (demographic, income, assets). For asset-based lending (car loans, mortgages, etc), FICO is even more irrelevant compared to factors like loan-to-value.

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harryh 7y ago
demographic I don't think it's a good idea to go back to the bad old days before credit reporting where whether you could get a loan or not was based on your demographics (color of your skin) rather than on the objective criterion in a credit report.
- propter_hoc 7y ago
  Your home address, age and marital status are absolutely used by lenders in a data-driven analysis of whether you are a creditworthy borrower. I don't think that's a necessarily malevolent analysis, but it's also not true that we live in a society where your demographics are irrelevant to your ability to access credit.
  - harryh 7y ago
    Your home address, age and marital status are absolutely used by lenders Oh I know. The world isn't perfect in this respect, but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be thanks to credit reporting. It has been an incredibly powerful tool for social justice. Outlawing it as a tool would be a very large step backwards.
    - propter_hoc 7y ago
      I honestly think it would be overall better for us. Like I said, FICO is a very weak signal that isn't given much weight in the adjudication process; and your lenders are using these other signals I listed anyway, so the negative social effects you speak of are already happening. So, the only net outcome of automatic, forced credit reporting is that third party companies exist that collect, misuse and profit off of citizens' personal data. Anyway, rather than a draconian approach of outlawing credit bureaus, I think a law making third-party credit reporting optional rather than required is the right thing to push for, and more realistic than a nonstarter suggestion like nationalizing the credit bureaus.
- asdff 7y ago
  How about just looking at inflow and outflow? "Gee he's got 50k in high interest student loans and makes 30k a year, but boy he had that amex for 5 years! Let's give him a 5k limit to toy around with." Raising your credit rating is literally a game. There are even subreddits devoted to the topic filled with pages and pages of strategy that looks deranged on the outset.