7 ms·

So basically they're not trying to suppress minority voters?

oscar_wong67 7y ago
Poor people don't have IDs because they don't drive and don't have driver's licenses, and they don't have the work flexibility or the luxury to go to the DMV, afaik
- sverige 7y ago
  This is the silliest argument against voter ID laws ever, and should be retired. [0] [1] [2] [0] https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14909764/study-voter-id-racism https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14909764/study-vote... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/opinion/voter-id-study-republicans-democrats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/opinion/voter-id-study-re... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
  - jimclegg 7y ago
    Wow this thread reeks of classism. You can't imagine an American that cannot afford $50-100 for a government I.D.? You can imagine (& possibly smell) the feces on the street but not the poor people who excrete it? We know most Americans can't come up with $400 for an emergency, are you going to act like this won't impact voting? This thread is why people are forcing diversity quotas even when it seems unnecessary, income diversity should be next.
    - asabjorn 7y ago
      You need a government ID to apply for food stamps or welfare or medicaid/social security, and to apply for unemployment or a job. It would seem like a poor person would utilize those services. Also, you need an ID to have a bank account, buy a cellphone, buy alcohol or cigarettes.
      - RandomBacon 7y ago
        > Also, you need an ID to have a bank account, buy a cellphone, buy alcohol or cigarettes. Incorrect on all three accounts in the U.S. Some states might have a law requiring ID for alcohol or cigarettes, but at least one definitely does not. Some stores actually violate their state's law with their store's ID policies. I've done all three without ID (alcohol, not cigarettes though). Yes, it is possible to have a bank account without ID.
        asabjorn 7y ago
        > Yes, it is possible to have a bank account without ID. Where do you get that from? It seems incorrect: "You’ll need to provide a valid, government-issued photo ID, such as a driver’s license or a passport, or a state ID card from the Department of Motor Vehicles." [1] > Some states might have a law requiring ID for alcohol or cigarettes, but at least one definitely does not. Some stores actually violate their state's law with their store's ID policies. All states require you to be 21 to buy alcohol. Which states do not require you to provide ID for that? Seems like we might be splitting hairs here due to laws such as Indianas that "Indiana has a photo identification requirement for all off-premises transactions to anyone who is or reasonably appears to be less than forty (40) years of age." [3] So yes, some liquor seller might be lax on enforcement or judge you to look over 40. However, that doesn't change the laws. [1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/how-to-open-a-bank-account-what-you-need/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/how-to-open-a-bank-a... [2] https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0388-alcohol-laws-state https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0388-alcohol-laws-stat... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_Un...
        RandomBacon 7y ago
        > Where do you get that from? It seems incorrect Personal experience. I've opened bank accounts online with credit unions. Never had to show them my ID, even when I went in person to withdraw cash. If I was a third party reading these comments, I wouldn't trust a *.com website, but instead some law, or official govt website. There's a lot of things in this word that "seem wrong" but are perfectly legal.
  - youeseh 7y ago
    Hey, I watched the video and found it interesting that the guy interviewed people in Berkeley and New York - places where voter suppression is not an issue. Some counterpoints: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFOwlMCdto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFOwlMCdto
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  And they definitely don't buy alcohol.
  - youeseh 7y ago
    What do you think is the cost of making an additional ID? Probably 1/2 hour of work (if that), printing and mailing. So, like, a 24-pack of expensive hipster brew? $50? It costs $31 to get an ID in California, and $9 if you can't afford $31. They can afford their booze and still get an ID here, and hopefully in other states too.
youeseh 7y ago
It is a numbers game (no puns intended). Let's say we have 100k people that live in a few poor counties where not everyone has government ID and they can't afford to spend time / money to go very far. Now, if 40k of those people need an ID to vote, reducing the hours that the nearest DMV operates will reduce the number of people that get an ID. Now, you might say, "but why can't they just go to the DMV in the next county?" or "why can't they get their IDs well ahead of time?", and you'd have a valid question! But when you have 100k people.. creating what looks like a minor inconvenience will definitely translate to fewer voters in the end. Now, lets create a bunch of minor inconveniences and the numbers really start to shrink.
- kayaeb 7y ago
  What are better suggestions to prevent voter fraud? We know from history that voting fraud is a thing, in the 1800s it was known that political parties would pay fresh immigrants to vote (like the scene in Upton Sinclaire's "The Jungle"), or to even kidnap people and force them into voting [1]. So we can't rely on good faith. I'm under the impression that to vote you must register in a voting district, surely that registration requires something like a birth certificate or a SSN, which I believe is the only requirement for a government issued ID... Operating on the idea that the requirement for government IDs may in fact be a good faith measure to prevent voter fraud, would perhaps an optimal solution be to bring a web camera to that voting registration area and simultaneously issue IDs there? To be honest, I thought it was a non-issue since my voter registration is also my draft registration, so I assume I provided some form of citizenship proof when I registered. It was a while ago though so I don't recall the details. [1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/election-fraud-in-the-1800s-involved-kidnapping-and-forced-drinking https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/election-fraud-in-the-...
  - Retric 7y ago
    The common solution when little documentation exists is to apply ink at voting booths. Something that comes off in a few days, but otherwise bonds to the top layer of people’s skin. That’s plenty for one person one vote. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink As to having non residents vote, vastly more eligible voters don’t vote than people ineligible to vote. Honestly, as much hoopla as this gets it’s clear from recent elections it’s a non issue. Look for actual examples of this happening and your coming up empty.

Poor people don't have IDs because they don't drive and don't have driver's licenses, and they don't have the work flexibility or the luxury to go to the DMV, afaik

sverige 7y ago
This is the silliest argument against voter ID laws ever, and should be retired. [0] [1] [2] [0] https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14909764/study-voter-id-racism https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14909764/study-vote... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/opinion/voter-id-study-republicans-democrats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/opinion/voter-id-study-re... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
- jimclegg 7y ago
  Wow this thread reeks of classism. You can't imagine an American that cannot afford $50-100 for a government I.D.? You can imagine (& possibly smell) the feces on the street but not the poor people who excrete it? We know most Americans can't come up with $400 for an emergency, are you going to act like this won't impact voting? This thread is why people are forcing diversity quotas even when it seems unnecessary, income diversity should be next.
  - asabjorn 7y ago
    You need a government ID to apply for food stamps or welfare or medicaid/social security, and to apply for unemployment or a job. It would seem like a poor person would utilize those services. Also, you need an ID to have a bank account, buy a cellphone, buy alcohol or cigarettes.
    - RandomBacon 7y ago
      > Also, you need an ID to have a bank account, buy a cellphone, buy alcohol or cigarettes. Incorrect on all three accounts in the U.S. Some states might have a law requiring ID for alcohol or cigarettes, but at least one definitely does not. Some stores actually violate their state's law with their store's ID policies. I've done all three without ID (alcohol, not cigarettes though). Yes, it is possible to have a bank account without ID.
      - asabjorn 7y ago
        > Yes, it is possible to have a bank account without ID. Where do you get that from? It seems incorrect: "You’ll need to provide a valid, government-issued photo ID, such as a driver’s license or a passport, or a state ID card from the Department of Motor Vehicles." [1] > Some states might have a law requiring ID for alcohol or cigarettes, but at least one definitely does not. Some stores actually violate their state's law with their store's ID policies. All states require you to be 21 to buy alcohol. Which states do not require you to provide ID for that? Seems like we might be splitting hairs here due to laws such as Indianas that "Indiana has a photo identification requirement for all off-premises transactions to anyone who is or reasonably appears to be less than forty (40) years of age." [3] So yes, some liquor seller might be lax on enforcement or judge you to look over 40. However, that doesn't change the laws. [1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/how-to-open-a-bank-account-what-you-need/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/how-to-open-a-bank-a... [2] https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0388-alcohol-laws-state https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0388-alcohol-laws-stat... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_Un...
        RandomBacon 7y ago
        > Where do you get that from? It seems incorrect Personal experience. I've opened bank accounts online with credit unions. Never had to show them my ID, even when I went in person to withdraw cash. If I was a third party reading these comments, I wouldn't trust a *.com website, but instead some law, or official govt website. There's a lot of things in this word that "seem wrong" but are perfectly legal.
- youeseh 7y ago
  Hey, I watched the video and found it interesting that the guy interviewed people in Berkeley and New York - places where voter suppression is not an issue. Some counterpoints: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFOwlMCdto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFOwlMCdto
SamReidHughes 7y ago
And they definitely don't buy alcohol.
- youeseh 7y ago
  What do you think is the cost of making an additional ID? Probably 1/2 hour of work (if that), printing and mailing. So, like, a 24-pack of expensive hipster brew? $50? It costs $31 to get an ID in California, and $9 if you can't afford $31. They can afford their booze and still get an ID here, and hopefully in other states too.

youeseh 7y ago

It is a numbers game (no puns intended). Let's say we have 100k people that live in a few poor counties where not everyone has government ID and they can't afford to spend time / money to go very far. Now, if 40k of those people need an ID to vote, reducing the hours that the nearest DMV operates will reduce the number of people that get an ID. Now, you might say, "but why can't they just go to the DMV in the next county?" or "why can't they get their IDs well ahead of time?", and you'd have a valid question! But when you have 100k people.. creating what looks like a minor inconvenience will definitely translate to fewer voters in the end. Now, lets create a bunch of minor inconveniences and the numbers really start to shrink.

kayaeb 7y ago
What are better suggestions to prevent voter fraud? We know from history that voting fraud is a thing, in the 1800s it was known that political parties would pay fresh immigrants to vote (like the scene in Upton Sinclaire's "The Jungle"), or to even kidnap people and force them into voting [1]. So we can't rely on good faith. I'm under the impression that to vote you must register in a voting district, surely that registration requires something like a birth certificate or a SSN, which I believe is the only requirement for a government issued ID... Operating on the idea that the requirement for government IDs may in fact be a good faith measure to prevent voter fraud, would perhaps an optimal solution be to bring a web camera to that voting registration area and simultaneously issue IDs there? To be honest, I thought it was a non-issue since my voter registration is also my draft registration, so I assume I provided some form of citizenship proof when I registered. It was a while ago though so I don't recall the details. [1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/election-fraud-in-the-1800s-involved-kidnapping-and-forced-drinking https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/election-fraud-in-the-...
- Retric 7y ago
  The common solution when little documentation exists is to apply ink at voting booths. Something that comes off in a few days, but otherwise bonds to the top layer of people’s skin. That’s plenty for one person one vote. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink As to having non residents vote, vastly more eligible voters don’t vote than people ineligible to vote. Honestly, as much hoopla as this gets it’s clear from recent elections it’s a non issue. Look for actual examples of this happening and your coming up empty.