8 ms·

They're overwhelmingly white, and the lie is pretending otherwise.

bksenior 7y ago
Yea, but the point is that its not necessarily causal. It would be like looking at people who died of cancer and determining weight-loss as one the best correlated culprits to ID it. It would probably catch a ton of people who were really sick, but it seems to ignore some of the deeper casualties. The white thing certainly is problematic culturally, but it's not REALLY the problem its more of a symptom of previous power choosing future power.
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  So ... what do you want? To re-initialize Harvard with a 100% randomization of admissions for 10-15 years?
- kaitai 7y ago
  I agree with you, overall. So why dance around it? In this country (the US), white people by law got to win more often than others. In India and China and other places other rules were in place. Every place has its rules, and in most, as you put it, previous power chooses future power. With our weird "one drop" laws in the US affecting everything from voting to banking access to property rights to mortgage rates to schooling, race and ancestry are inextricably tied to that in the US. Ruby Bridges only had her 65th birthday this Sept 8. She's younger than my parents. I think it is utterly fascinating to watch the world change and watch morals and mores change, but still see power reconfiguring, like mercury falling into a groove, to maintain power and bend law to its service! And the naive/idealistic among us say oh, we'd never do things like our ignorant and unenlightened ancestors. We don't see race. We don't see color. We're a pure meritocracy, with advancement ruled only by your access to the best schools ;)
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    > I think it is utterly fascinating to watch the world change and watch morals and mores change, but still see power reconfiguring, like mercury falling into a groove, to maintain power and bend law to its service! Absolutely beautifully put.
  - onetimeposter1 7y ago
    Except in the US, in spite of the historically large majority white demographic makeup of the country, we have done more to be welcoming to other groups in recent history than virtually any other country on Earth. Look at a chart listing salary in America by country of origin. That chart tells the story of a country that gives people from all over the world opportunity to succeed.
mieseratte 7y ago
Would help if the abstract didn’t uses phrasing like “benefits whites.” It doesn’t benefit whites, it benefits kids with rich parents. Similarly, Affirmative Action benefits kids with lesser academics, but explicitly based on their race. Perhaps if they want to draw apples-to-oranges comparisons they would do well to point this out.
- sappapp 7y ago
  The paper does not use the phrase “benefits whites.” Interpreting the paper as such is a racist interpretation. You would do well to read the paper.
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    pg 2: "legacy preferences will tend to benefit white applicants relative to other racial groups. pg 34: "Each of the ALDC preferences primarily benefit white students."
    - kaitai 7y ago
      I'm sort of troubled by the fast & loose nature of mieseratte's statements; in such a simple matter one might as well be accurate about the location of the statements referenced, and WillPostForFood is correct that the statements that contain "benefit white" students/applicants are not in the abstract but later. I also think that there's a bit of subtle misrepresentation when this discussion is being framed as "benefiting whites". There are many white people in the US who do not have access to college, do not have access to good public education, do not have the financial means to become legacy students, etc. In the sentences from the article, there's some set theory going on: among admitted students, a larger fraction of white students were benefited by ALDC preferences. Among applicants, a larger fraction of white students got the benefit of these admissions. This is a race thing, sure, among people already applying for college -- which is already a substantial filter with its own complexity. Many colleges care about legacy admissions because they cement a family (and their donations and alumni networks and job help and etc) to a college more securely than anything else. It is also true that this perpetuates the patterns of the past. One of those patterns in the US is that white people got to go to college and others did not. White people should not get too sensitive about this. It's just true.

Yea, but the point is that its not necessarily causal. It would be like looking at people who died of cancer and determining weight-loss as one the best correlated culprits to ID it. It would probably catch a ton of people who were really sick, but it seems to ignore some of the deeper casualties. The white thing certainly is problematic culturally, but it's not REALLY the problem its more of a symptom of previous power choosing future power.

killjoywashere 7y ago
So ... what do you want? To re-initialize Harvard with a 100% randomization of admissions for 10-15 years?
kaitai 7y ago
I agree with you, overall. So why dance around it? In this country (the US), white people by law got to win more often than others. In India and China and other places other rules were in place. Every place has its rules, and in most, as you put it, previous power chooses future power. With our weird "one drop" laws in the US affecting everything from voting to banking access to property rights to mortgage rates to schooling, race and ancestry are inextricably tied to that in the US. Ruby Bridges only had her 65th birthday this Sept 8. She's younger than my parents. I think it is utterly fascinating to watch the world change and watch morals and mores change, but still see power reconfiguring, like mercury falling into a groove, to maintain power and bend law to its service! And the naive/idealistic among us say oh, we'd never do things like our ignorant and unenlightened ancestors. We don't see race. We don't see color. We're a pure meritocracy, with advancement ruled only by your access to the best schools ;)
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  > I think it is utterly fascinating to watch the world change and watch morals and mores change, but still see power reconfiguring, like mercury falling into a groove, to maintain power and bend law to its service! Absolutely beautifully put.
- onetimeposter1 7y ago
  Except in the US, in spite of the historically large majority white demographic makeup of the country, we have done more to be welcoming to other groups in recent history than virtually any other country on Earth. Look at a chart listing salary in America by country of origin. That chart tells the story of a country that gives people from all over the world opportunity to succeed.

mieseratte 7y ago

Would help if the abstract didn’t uses phrasing like “benefits whites.” It doesn’t benefit whites, it benefits kids with rich parents. Similarly, Affirmative Action benefits kids with lesser academics, but explicitly based on their race. Perhaps if they want to draw apples-to-oranges comparisons they would do well to point this out.

sappapp 7y ago
The paper does not use the phrase “benefits whites.” Interpreting the paper as such is a racist interpretation. You would do well to read the paper.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  pg 2: "legacy preferences will tend to benefit white applicants relative to other racial groups. pg 34: "Each of the ALDC preferences primarily benefit white students."
  - kaitai 7y ago
    I'm sort of troubled by the fast & loose nature of mieseratte's statements; in such a simple matter one might as well be accurate about the location of the statements referenced, and WillPostForFood is correct that the statements that contain "benefit white" students/applicants are not in the abstract but later. I also think that there's a bit of subtle misrepresentation when this discussion is being framed as "benefiting whites". There are many white people in the US who do not have access to college, do not have access to good public education, do not have the financial means to become legacy students, etc. In the sentences from the article, there's some set theory going on: among admitted students, a larger fraction of white students were benefited by ALDC preferences. Among applicants, a larger fraction of white students got the benefit of these admissions. This is a race thing, sure, among people already applying for college -- which is already a substantial filter with its own complexity. Many colleges care about legacy admissions because they cement a family (and their donations and alumni networks and job help and etc) to a college more securely than anything else. It is also true that this perpetuates the patterns of the past. One of those patterns in the US is that white people got to go to college and others did not. White people should not get too sensitive about this. It's just true.