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So... managers/executives are just reprehensible in general...?

by bjornsing 7y ago

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
Yeah, there is even a whole academic-grade sociology book about this, called Moral Mazes.
- bjornsing 7y ago
  Interesting. Haven’t come across this book before. A quick glance on the Wikipedia page[1] doesn’t give me the impression that it paints all managers/executives as reprehensible though... But I guess you’ve read it and come to this conclusion? I do agree though that there is, in many of the organizations I’ve worked in, large and smallish, a perverse incentive structure in that "instead of ability, talent, and dedicated service to an organization, politics, adroit talk, luck, connections, and self-promotion are the real sorters of people into sheep and goats" [1]. But you think the solution to this is more bureaucracy? I’m leaning more towards better selection, cultural norms and perhaps some “separation of powers”. But I’m speculating. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Most people are selfish. But this only matters when people have power. That's why people in power look so bad.
    - bjornsing 7y ago
      An interesting and succinct explanation. It goes well with my own thinking too, that (in management/power) you want people who are focused on the outside world, with a “selfish” desire to affect/change it. When they act “selfishly” they will at least do something resembling executing on a strategy. The people you really want to avoid are those that are not very talented or able and just want power for its own sake. When they turn “selfish” they will focus within the organization, promoting cronies, expanding their power base, etc, etc. when others see this the culture goes to hell... That’s my current theory at least. :P
vkou 7y ago
Someone having absolute power over you leads to reprehensible behavior, and the most common expression of that power in the modern age is the manager-employee relationship.
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  Oh, be serious! No manager has "absolute power" over you. At a maximum they have the power to fire you. As a software developer in this economy there are far more important things to worry about. And yeah, I'm a manager!
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    Yeah, firing you so you can't pay rent and don't have health care isn't much power at all, is it? And withholding a reference for their next job hunt certainly doesn't do anything either.
    - shams93 7y ago
      Yeah in modern capitalism simple failure to "fit in" often leads to death for a free country you have to toe the line so tight it breaks your feet but you better not complain lol
    - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
      The OP said "absolute power" not "any power" so let's at least get that straight. Nice goalpost moving, though. And TBH, I don't know anyone who uses their current job as reference for the next job: probably wouldn't go over well. I still have people I last worked with 10 years ago using me as a reference.

So... managers/executives are just reprehensible in general...?

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

Yeah, there is even a whole academic-grade sociology book about this, called Moral Mazes.

bjornsing 7y ago
Interesting. Haven’t come across this book before. A quick glance on the Wikipedia page[1] doesn’t give me the impression that it paints all managers/executives as reprehensible though... But I guess you’ve read it and come to this conclusion? I do agree though that there is, in many of the organizations I’ve worked in, large and smallish, a perverse incentive structure in that "instead of ability, talent, and dedicated service to an organization, politics, adroit talk, luck, connections, and self-promotion are the real sorters of people into sheep and goats" [1]. But you think the solution to this is more bureaucracy? I’m leaning more towards better selection, cultural norms and perhaps some “separation of powers”. But I’m speculating. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Most people are selfish. But this only matters when people have power. That's why people in power look so bad.
  - bjornsing 7y ago
    An interesting and succinct explanation. It goes well with my own thinking too, that (in management/power) you want people who are focused on the outside world, with a “selfish” desire to affect/change it. When they act “selfishly” they will at least do something resembling executing on a strategy. The people you really want to avoid are those that are not very talented or able and just want power for its own sake. When they turn “selfish” they will focus within the organization, promoting cronies, expanding their power base, etc, etc. when others see this the culture goes to hell... That’s my current theory at least. :P

vkou 7y ago

Someone having absolute power over you leads to reprehensible behavior, and the most common expression of that power in the modern age is the manager-employee relationship.

HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
Oh, be serious! No manager has "absolute power" over you. At a maximum they have the power to fire you. As a software developer in this economy there are far more important things to worry about. And yeah, I'm a manager!
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Yeah, firing you so you can't pay rent and don't have health care isn't much power at all, is it? And withholding a reference for their next job hunt certainly doesn't do anything either.
  - shams93 7y ago
    Yeah in modern capitalism simple failure to "fit in" often leads to death for a free country you have to toe the line so tight it breaks your feet but you better not complain lol
  - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
    The OP said "absolute power" not "any power" so let's at least get that straight. Nice goalpost moving, though. And TBH, I don't know anyone who uses their current job as reference for the next job: probably wouldn't go over well. I still have people I last worked with 10 years ago using me as a reference.