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At least two other data points - I have a friend who worked in a govt agency - doing cool and important work - she left because of the unfirable lifers - while

At least two other data points - I have a friend who worked in a govt agency - doing cool and important work - she left because of the unfirable lifers - while the stories are funny you can’t go to work and perform well in that situation. In high school teacher X was notorious for giving no work and no s*its. He missed lots of his classes so always subs. We thought it was cool (usually easy A). He was there years but my senior year he must have done something way over the line because he was fired midday. Amazingly the gossip never figured out what he did (despite kids w parents on school board)

dlp211 7y ago
Those are nice anecdotes, the data says otherwise. There will always be slackers, they exist in every job and industry.
- vondur 7y ago
  I’ll admit there’s always slackers in any workplace, but what data are you referring to?
- kortilla 7y ago
  [citation needed] Eliminating any motivation to perform well is of course going to discourage people who try harder for rewards. That’s basic economics. Claiming that the top performers will continue to innovate and lead when they are compensated the same as the bare minimum clock punchers is extraordinary and requires evidence. About the only place where unions are better (at least the salary negotiating US style ones) are jobs where innovation and efficiency are irrelevant.
  - turtlecloud 7y ago
    With UBI that should remove the lazy ones who are stuck in those type of positions.
    - ci5er 7y ago
      Society pays for those who won't work? Nice promo material!
      - cortesoft 7y ago
        We pay for them in some way or the other... they either are on public assistance or end up in jail. We pay either way.
        ci5er 7y ago
        You have a preference?
        cortesoft 7y ago
        I prefer a basic income.
        ci5er 7y ago
        Pay criminals not to work? Somehow I don't think this is good PR... I don't disagree, but I don't know know if this is how the case needs to be made...
        AlgorithmicTime 7y ago
        Or we could do neither...q
        kortilla 7y ago
        No, UBI is paying for people who already work and receive nothing. We’re not “paying either way”.
      - taneq 7y ago
        Probably better that society pays them to sit on the couch at home than that we force them to pollute workplaces that would otherwise get more and higher quality work done.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    There's already no motivation to 'perform well' because promotions don't mean shit nowadays. You can perform better than the rest of your entire company and get a 1% raise as a show of kindness along with maybe a new $50 coffee machine gift. It's common knowledge in the software industry that the best way to advance is to hop jobs every two or so years. Do you think it's because of the non-existent unions, or because of corporations underpaying employees because they know they can get away with it?
    - austhrow743 7y ago
      You know this is about Google right?
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        No, you're wrong on two accounts. First, this argument chain is about unions in general. Please read up on the full response chain to understand the context of my response, starting with stjohnswarts. Second, this thread and story is not about Google. It's about Google's contractors. There's a very important distinction there, because contractors are often treated worse both by the companies they're working under as well as the contracted companies they're working with. Google might treat its own employees better (although the jury is still out on that with many stories alleging discrimination in terms of pay and what not) but this story is obstensibly about the anti-union behavior occurring at companies Google is partnered with.
        privateSFacct 7y ago
        False. There are contractors to google making a killing - seriously - if you own your own business or provide a service to google you can make bank. One example -> some of the employee / teambuilding / staff appreciation stuff. If the google FTE's like doing your teambuilding program google is absolutely happy to pay for it. I know some other direct contract work with google - generally don't fight on price but their focus was on quality. I'd like to hear some firsthand experiences of direct contractors working for google (ie, google 1099's) getting badly treated because that wasn't what I saw.
  - LaGrange 7y ago
    > That’s basic economics. Oh really. Because to me it sounds like a statement about human motivation patterns, and some huge assumptions about it that are, quite often, wrong. Just like cats, humans can be motivated by: * food (or food-equivalents in the form of flipping some bits in a bank) * social interaction (60% of cats as long as not starved!) ...also, unlike cats (AFAIK), but very frequently (also AFAIK) humans can be motivated by: * self-expression * perceived benefit to society. If not for the need for self-expression, there would be barely anyone working in the games industry. And pretty much every company's internal relations spew more-or-less thinly veiled nonsense about how spying on customers is good - or at least acceptable - actually. That's because the last part is an _enormous_ part of motivation for many. > Claiming that the top performers will continue to innovate and lead when they are compensated the same as the bare minimum clock punchers is extraordinary and requires evidence. ...except non-unionised companies often tolerate bare minimum clock punchers, and, conversely, unions often penalise those. Good relationship with management can easily allow slacking, and unions have more interest in company's survival than some nomadic C-level. You're making things up and then demanding others to provide evidence. Some of us actually worked in an office for more than a day, you know.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      >Because to me it sounds like a statement about human motivation patterns Lol. I think you need to look up what the study of economics is.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  I'd be interested in that data - I have colleagues with wives / husbands doing union shift work - even if you are 100% gung-ho it seems to be 100% seniority based still or has that changed? Things like UBI, higher minimum wage, reduce exempt classification loopholes etc all seem like ways that rules could change to benefit everyone. I would LOVE to see the data that says a seniority based union system results in better retention of high performers and their continued push to perform well.
  - thomasmeeks 7y ago
    Unions aren't perfect, so take care to not scrap your car because it has a dent. https://www.google.com/search?q=do+unions+benefit+employees+data https://www.google.com/search?q=do+unions+benefit+employees+... First two links have loads of commentary with citations. There's plenty of books on the subject, as well, if you're interested. Amazon is a good place to look for them.
  - linuxdude314 7y ago
    The union I have experience with (Sound Engineers union in Burbank) was nothing but a complete pain. The union admits members based on nepotism (friends and family only essentially) and the work they did was always second tier in comparison to the non covered studio engineering team. I was on a systems engineering team at this studio, and our union counter parts were nothing but incompetent pains in the ass. Unions don’t have to be this way, and I think they serve an important roll, but people should really be careful what they are asking for as the results might not be what are expected.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- shitgoose 7y ago
  there will be way more slackers in a job-secure environment, where workers have 0 motivation to do anything.
whenanother 7y ago
funny how your are referring a technically government job and conflating it with corporate jobs. completely different set of politics involved. what is great is that the notion of engineers being above unionization is a ruse that has been clearly put to bed. also it is not yours or mine concern as to whether or not corporations are operating efficiently.
MiroF 7y ago
Anecdotes don't gain rhetorical force by calling them "data points"
vidarh 7y ago
Meanwhile things like the 8 hour working day was a result of decades of union efforts - much of which was met with open violence. Unions can go too far in supporting people who should not be protected,but a large part of the reason they do is that they came into existence at a time when employers literally were prepared to see workers die to protect their ability to mistreat people. Unions tends to take softer stances e.g. in parts of Europe where their level of involvement in decision-making means the hard-line stances are no longer seen as necessary.
andrepd 7y ago
Cool, you have two stories of slackers on a job. What relevance does that have to the discussion?
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  I was responding to this claim about seniority based unionized workforces "People on the upper end will not stop contributing or trying". I was interested in the citation for this given the anecdotal info I had which involved high performing folks trying to find more rewarding work elsewhere.

dlp211 7y ago

Those are nice anecdotes, the data says otherwise. There will always be slackers, they exist in every job and industry.

vondur 7y ago
I’ll admit there’s always slackers in any workplace, but what data are you referring to?
kortilla 7y ago
[citation needed] Eliminating any motivation to perform well is of course going to discourage people who try harder for rewards. That’s basic economics. Claiming that the top performers will continue to innovate and lead when they are compensated the same as the bare minimum clock punchers is extraordinary and requires evidence. About the only place where unions are better (at least the salary negotiating US style ones) are jobs where innovation and efficiency are irrelevant.
- turtlecloud 7y ago
  With UBI that should remove the lazy ones who are stuck in those type of positions.
  - ci5er 7y ago
    Society pays for those who won't work? Nice promo material!
    - cortesoft 7y ago
      We pay for them in some way or the other... they either are on public assistance or end up in jail. We pay either way.
      - ci5er 7y ago
        You have a preference?
        cortesoft 7y ago
        I prefer a basic income.
        ci5er 7y ago
        Pay criminals not to work? Somehow I don't think this is good PR... I don't disagree, but I don't know know if this is how the case needs to be made...
      - AlgorithmicTime 7y ago
        Or we could do neither...q
      - kortilla 7y ago
        No, UBI is paying for people who already work and receive nothing. We’re not “paying either way”.
    - taneq 7y ago
      Probably better that society pays them to sit on the couch at home than that we force them to pollute workplaces that would otherwise get more and higher quality work done.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  There's already no motivation to 'perform well' because promotions don't mean shit nowadays. You can perform better than the rest of your entire company and get a 1% raise as a show of kindness along with maybe a new $50 coffee machine gift. It's common knowledge in the software industry that the best way to advance is to hop jobs every two or so years. Do you think it's because of the non-existent unions, or because of corporations underpaying employees because they know they can get away with it?
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    You know this is about Google right?
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      No, you're wrong on two accounts. First, this argument chain is about unions in general. Please read up on the full response chain to understand the context of my response, starting with stjohnswarts. Second, this thread and story is not about Google. It's about Google's contractors. There's a very important distinction there, because contractors are often treated worse both by the companies they're working under as well as the contracted companies they're working with. Google might treat its own employees better (although the jury is still out on that with many stories alleging discrimination in terms of pay and what not) but this story is obstensibly about the anti-union behavior occurring at companies Google is partnered with.
      - privateSFacct 7y ago
        False. There are contractors to google making a killing - seriously - if you own your own business or provide a service to google you can make bank. One example -> some of the employee / teambuilding / staff appreciation stuff. If the google FTE's like doing your teambuilding program google is absolutely happy to pay for it. I know some other direct contract work with google - generally don't fight on price but their focus was on quality. I'd like to hear some firsthand experiences of direct contractors working for google (ie, google 1099's) getting badly treated because that wasn't what I saw.
- LaGrange 7y ago
  > That’s basic economics. Oh really. Because to me it sounds like a statement about human motivation patterns, and some huge assumptions about it that are, quite often, wrong. Just like cats, humans can be motivated by: * food (or food-equivalents in the form of flipping some bits in a bank) * social interaction (60% of cats as long as not starved!) ...also, unlike cats (AFAIK), but very frequently (also AFAIK) humans can be motivated by: * self-expression * perceived benefit to society. If not for the need for self-expression, there would be barely anyone working in the games industry. And pretty much every company's internal relations spew more-or-less thinly veiled nonsense about how spying on customers is good - or at least acceptable - actually. That's because the last part is an _enormous_ part of motivation for many. > Claiming that the top performers will continue to innovate and lead when they are compensated the same as the bare minimum clock punchers is extraordinary and requires evidence. ...except non-unionised companies often tolerate bare minimum clock punchers, and, conversely, unions often penalise those. Good relationship with management can easily allow slacking, and unions have more interest in company's survival than some nomadic C-level. You're making things up and then demanding others to provide evidence. Some of us actually worked in an office for more than a day, you know.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    >Because to me it sounds like a statement about human motivation patterns Lol. I think you need to look up what the study of economics is.
privateSFacct 7y ago
I'd be interested in that data - I have colleagues with wives / husbands doing union shift work - even if you are 100% gung-ho it seems to be 100% seniority based still or has that changed? Things like UBI, higher minimum wage, reduce exempt classification loopholes etc all seem like ways that rules could change to benefit everyone. I would LOVE to see the data that says a seniority based union system results in better retention of high performers and their continued push to perform well.
- thomasmeeks 7y ago
  Unions aren't perfect, so take care to not scrap your car because it has a dent. https://www.google.com/search?q=do+unions+benefit+employees+data https://www.google.com/search?q=do+unions+benefit+employees+... First two links have loads of commentary with citations. There's plenty of books on the subject, as well, if you're interested. Amazon is a good place to look for them.
- linuxdude314 7y ago
  The union I have experience with (Sound Engineers union in Burbank) was nothing but a complete pain. The union admits members based on nepotism (friends and family only essentially) and the work they did was always second tier in comparison to the non covered studio engineering team. I was on a systems engineering team at this studio, and our union counter parts were nothing but incompetent pains in the ass. Unions don’t have to be this way, and I think they serve an important roll, but people should really be careful what they are asking for as the results might not be what are expected.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
shitgoose 7y ago
there will be way more slackers in a job-secure environment, where workers have 0 motivation to do anything.

whenanother 7y ago

funny how your are referring a technically government job and conflating it with corporate jobs. completely different set of politics involved. what is great is that the notion of engineers being above unionization is a ruse that has been clearly put to bed. also it is not yours or mine concern as to whether or not corporations are operating efficiently.

MiroF 7y ago

Anecdotes don't gain rhetorical force by calling them "data points"

vidarh 7y ago

Meanwhile things like the 8 hour working day was a result of decades of union efforts - much of which was met with open violence. Unions can go too far in supporting people who should not be protected,but a large part of the reason they do is that they came into existence at a time when employers literally were prepared to see workers die to protect their ability to mistreat people. Unions tends to take softer stances e.g. in parts of Europe where their level of involvement in decision-making means the hard-line stances are no longer seen as necessary.

andrepd 7y ago

Cool, you have two stories of slackers on a job. What relevance does that have to the discussion?

privateSFacct 7y ago
I was responding to this claim about seniority based unionized workforces "People on the upper end will not stop contributing or trying". I was interested in the citation for this given the anecdotal info I had which involved high performing folks trying to find more rewarding work elsewhere.