5 ms·

Lawyers and accountants become partners in their firms and are incentivized to work towards the long term health of the firm so younger lawyers will buy in and

Lawyers and accountants become partners in their firms and are incentivized to work towards the long term health of the firm so younger lawyers will buy in and they can retire and continue to enjoy the profits of the firm. What do Civil, mechanical, electrical, non-software Engineers have as a career path? None are in upper management. Maybe you get some stock options? You certainly don’t get to be in charge unless you start your own small, fledgling engineering company and then the chances are you only work on small projects since you aren’t big enough to sue if anything goes wrong you can’t get big contracts. Hoping someone can shed some light on another path for career professional engineers.

cco 7y ago
I'm a big fan of the idea of codifying software "engineers" more clearly. When an architect, civil engineer, or doctor put their stamp on a job they are both civilally and in some cases criminally liable for that work. As such each profession has a professional society and legal framework for qualifying their members. If you are building a webapp, it's probably fine that you haven't taken an ethical code, been legally qualified to write the code, etc, but those "engineers" that write code that keeps airplanes in the air or driverless cars on the road have, in my opinion, crossed that line into actual engineering work and as such should hold themselves to the same standards as other professionals in the space. In the case of MCAS there would be a codebase with a signed commit by the responsible engineer, his or her name would be right there in bold when the first version was shipped and when hack upon hack was piled on. Of course this is no panacea but this has to be the way forward as software continues to extend it's reach into mission critical roles in our lives, right?
- zwolbers 7y ago
  In aviation, DERs (Designated Engineering Representatives) fill that role [0]. They are responsible for ensuring rules/regulations are met, and need to sign off on everything before it's sent to the FAA. [0] https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/individual_designees/der/ https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_...
  - cco 7y ago
    So these software engineers would be referred to as Systems and Equipment Engineering leads in this case?
    - zwolbers 7y ago
      Take this post with a grain of salt - I've never worked directly with a DER. Hopefully others can correct me where needed. > So these software engineers would be referred to as Systems and Equipment Engineering leads in this case? I suppose you could say so, however my understanding has always been that DERs are highly specialized. "Systems and Equipment" covers a wide variety of aircraft components; I would think that's more of a category than a title. As a software engineer, on a project level, we've always simply referred to them as "The DER". While DERs certainly have a background in engineering, they don't actively help create the product - I wouldn't classify them as a "Engineering Lead". When it comes to designing something, its safety is derived from different internal groups with different goals continuously evaluating each other's work. At each level, everyone signs off on the work they performed or reviewed. As I understand it, the DER oversees all of this, and on a technical level, is ultimately responsible for convincing the FAA everything is safe. On the software side of things, whenever there's a release, a DER has to sign off on it.
- WWLink 7y ago
  If you have an ABET certified computer engineering degree, you can become a licensed engineer. Admittedly, I'm surprised that isn't a requirement for these things sometimes.
- Haga 7y ago
  In Germany when a machine is released a softwaresafety/electrical, mechanical engineer and CEO have to sign for the safety of that machine.
kthejoker2 7y ago
Lots of oil and gas CEOs are engineers by trade. And as an industry they seem to value field service in their leadership. My takeaway is embrace cartels, they're immune to market pressures and they're fundamentally conservative.

cco 7y ago

I'm a big fan of the idea of codifying software "engineers" more clearly. When an architect, civil engineer, or doctor put their stamp on a job they are both civilally and in some cases criminally liable for that work. As such each profession has a professional society and legal framework for qualifying their members. If you are building a webapp, it's probably fine that you haven't taken an ethical code, been legally qualified to write the code, etc, but those "engineers" that write code that keeps airplanes in the air or driverless cars on the road have, in my opinion, crossed that line into actual engineering work and as such should hold themselves to the same standards as other professionals in the space. In the case of MCAS there would be a codebase with a signed commit by the responsible engineer, his or her name would be right there in bold when the first version was shipped and when hack upon hack was piled on. Of course this is no panacea but this has to be the way forward as software continues to extend it's reach into mission critical roles in our lives, right?

zwolbers 7y ago
In aviation, DERs (Designated Engineering Representatives) fill that role [0]. They are responsible for ensuring rules/regulations are met, and need to sign off on everything before it's sent to the FAA. [0] https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/individual_designees/der/ https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_...
- cco 7y ago
  So these software engineers would be referred to as Systems and Equipment Engineering leads in this case?
  - zwolbers 7y ago
    Take this post with a grain of salt - I've never worked directly with a DER. Hopefully others can correct me where needed. > So these software engineers would be referred to as Systems and Equipment Engineering leads in this case? I suppose you could say so, however my understanding has always been that DERs are highly specialized. "Systems and Equipment" covers a wide variety of aircraft components; I would think that's more of a category than a title. As a software engineer, on a project level, we've always simply referred to them as "The DER". While DERs certainly have a background in engineering, they don't actively help create the product - I wouldn't classify them as a "Engineering Lead". When it comes to designing something, its safety is derived from different internal groups with different goals continuously evaluating each other's work. At each level, everyone signs off on the work they performed or reviewed. As I understand it, the DER oversees all of this, and on a technical level, is ultimately responsible for convincing the FAA everything is safe. On the software side of things, whenever there's a release, a DER has to sign off on it.
WWLink 7y ago
If you have an ABET certified computer engineering degree, you can become a licensed engineer. Admittedly, I'm surprised that isn't a requirement for these things sometimes.
Haga 7y ago
In Germany when a machine is released a softwaresafety/electrical, mechanical engineer and CEO have to sign for the safety of that machine.

kthejoker2 7y ago

Lots of oil and gas CEOs are engineers by trade. And as an industry they seem to value field service in their leadership. My takeaway is embrace cartels, they're immune to market pressures and they're fundamentally conservative.