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> Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. Why should every position need teeth? Isn't it possible that we are largely doing things correctly enough,

> Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. Why should every position need teeth? Isn't it possible that we are largely doing things correctly enough, and we should focus on the exceptions to that? > "...I just don't support ... my parents meeting my daughter and her black boyfriend" [your caricature of a moderate liberal] What do you accomplish, if your parents really are so racist, by tactlessly exposing to something they will simply reject? You have better options, even if your goal is for them to change. What about his parents, are they good? Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept. I don't get why empathy is no longer a common resource for solving problems in the left coast culture. People who are wrong about something are still people, and you won't notice when you're wrong like them, so why can't you empathize sometimes?

geofft 7y ago
> Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept. This is hardly my experience with racists. It would be nice if it worked, but there's a huge gulf between "empathy" and "wishful thinking." (And my experience with racists is informed by gulf coast culture, not left coast culture.)
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Having recently listened to and briefly met Daryl Davis, I know racists in large part can be reached, if we're not lazy about it. If they're your own parents, you have a huge advantage in terms of common ground.
  - geofft 7y ago
    There's the "racist" that leads the Ku Klux Klan, and the "racist" that has black coworkers they get along with great but just doesn't want their daughter dating a black man, it's just not how we do things, you know. The Klansman, at least in the present day, knows that he's on the margins of society's beliefs. Like any other tiny political position, holding those beliefs is uncomfortable. Even among the second category of racists, the KKK is too far. The Klansman doesn't have friends. His subconscious has been hoping for a way to rationalize leaving; it's more than happy to listen to Daryl Davis. His conscious, of course, is embarrassed to have been wrong, but with time that will fade. The second category of racists don't believe that they're racist. They believe (possibly correctly) that they're in the mainstream, that the label "racist" has been turned into a cudgel by a minority. If their own child is dating a black man, well, it's the child that's been brainwashed, the common ground is to convince their daughter to remember how the family works. (Why did no KKK member attempt to convince Daryl Davis to cease his crusade?) They're the ones who have friends and social groups who will support them. They're the ones who can easily find neighborhoods and churches and grocery stores free of black people - not that black people would be unwelcome, but clearly, it's unnatural for whites and blacks to interact. They have no subconscious desire to rationalize changing their minds; if anything, they have a subconscious desire to keep their feelings. (What will their friends say? What will their extend family say? What will their church say? Well, they won't say anything, but we all know what they'll think, right?)
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      > The Klansman doesn't have friends. The Klansman is a Klansman because his friends are Klansmen. If left to their own devices, they'll just get more used to living that way. Daryl doesn't win because he's on a crusade, he wins because he's a good friend.
    - tehjoker 7y ago
      The first group sees themselves as ascendant with the most powerful man in the world as their ally. It is foolish to dismiss the real problems of organized and politically powerful racism. It is one of the country's most early and ingrown sins that shapes our discourse and policy (e.g. policing and the concentration camps at the border) to this day.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Daryl Davis is a great guy, but you need to reflect on the fact that many KKK people took the initiative and reached out to him. It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. It's great when this happens, but it's also extremely labor-intensive and it requires the person who has been in the grip of a hateful ideology to be looking for a way out of it in the first place. If they're not, then things can go terribly wrong. Back in 2017, three bystanders tried to intercede with a guy who was screaming racial abuse at two women on public transport, and he stabbed all three intercessors, killing two of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      > It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. Unfortunately it is the job of those sympathetic to a cause to support it, whether they are victimized or not. It's not "fair" or "right", it's just a reality that causes are advanced by those who care about them. Life is tragic that way. > Back in 2017, three bystanders tried to intercede with a guy who was screaming racial abuse at two women on public transport, and he stabbed all three intercessors, killing two of them. If he was ready to stab this woman, it is what it is. The lunatic who did the stabbing didn't get his way for free either. May they rest in peace. Lunatics are brave and motivated, and heroes must be brave as well. It'd be nice if heroes could be effective and strong as well, but we don't get to choose when life calls upon us. If that seminal Klansman were a lunatic, Daryl could have died that night. Daryl's a brave man, and that is unfortunately what is called for.
      - geofft 7y ago
        But the daughter who wants to marry her boyfriend has no interest in the cause of getting her parents to change their minds - she has an interest in the cause of marrying her boyfriend. It is her job to find the most effective way to do that, which might mean cutting her racist parents out of her life. It is not her job to find the kindest way to do that and put off her marriage possibly indefinitely. It's not fair or right either. Life is tragic that way. Sometimes your kids find no need to empathize with you.
anigbrowl 7y ago
Because when push comes to shove those without teeth will be bitten. Those who are able to leverage force (whether economic, political, or physical) frequently do so. People who are wrong about something are still people, and you won't notice when you're wrong like them, so why can't you empathize sometimes? Oh dear no. Sure, they're still people, but if they've chosen to be mean about their views eventually they're going to be treated with reciprocity. It is not valid to say that 'you won't notice when you're wrong' as many people actively engage in self-reflection and other approaches so as to improve their decision-making. When those asking for empathy habitually deny it to others, it's reasonable to question whether their request is made in good faith or is a mere gambit. The more a person's behavior resembles the latter, the more reasonable it is to cut them off.

geofft 7y ago

> Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept. This is hardly my experience with racists. It would be nice if it worked, but there's a huge gulf between "empathy" and "wishful thinking." (And my experience with racists is informed by gulf coast culture, not left coast culture.)

microcolonel 7y ago
Having recently listened to and briefly met Daryl Davis, I know racists in large part can be reached, if we're not lazy about it. If they're your own parents, you have a huge advantage in terms of common ground.
- geofft 7y ago
  There's the "racist" that leads the Ku Klux Klan, and the "racist" that has black coworkers they get along with great but just doesn't want their daughter dating a black man, it's just not how we do things, you know. The Klansman, at least in the present day, knows that he's on the margins of society's beliefs. Like any other tiny political position, holding those beliefs is uncomfortable. Even among the second category of racists, the KKK is too far. The Klansman doesn't have friends. His subconscious has been hoping for a way to rationalize leaving; it's more than happy to listen to Daryl Davis. His conscious, of course, is embarrassed to have been wrong, but with time that will fade. The second category of racists don't believe that they're racist. They believe (possibly correctly) that they're in the mainstream, that the label "racist" has been turned into a cudgel by a minority. If their own child is dating a black man, well, it's the child that's been brainwashed, the common ground is to convince their daughter to remember how the family works. (Why did no KKK member attempt to convince Daryl Davis to cease his crusade?) They're the ones who have friends and social groups who will support them. They're the ones who can easily find neighborhoods and churches and grocery stores free of black people - not that black people would be unwelcome, but clearly, it's unnatural for whites and blacks to interact. They have no subconscious desire to rationalize changing their minds; if anything, they have a subconscious desire to keep their feelings. (What will their friends say? What will their extend family say? What will their church say? Well, they won't say anything, but we all know what they'll think, right?)
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    > The Klansman doesn't have friends. The Klansman is a Klansman because his friends are Klansmen. If left to their own devices, they'll just get more used to living that way. Daryl doesn't win because he's on a crusade, he wins because he's a good friend.
  - tehjoker 7y ago
    The first group sees themselves as ascendant with the most powerful man in the world as their ally. It is foolish to dismiss the real problems of organized and politically powerful racism. It is one of the country's most early and ingrown sins that shapes our discourse and policy (e.g. policing and the concentration camps at the border) to this day.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Daryl Davis is a great guy, but you need to reflect on the fact that many KKK people took the initiative and reached out to him. It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. It's great when this happens, but it's also extremely labor-intensive and it requires the person who has been in the grip of a hateful ideology to be looking for a way out of it in the first place. If they're not, then things can go terribly wrong. Back in 2017, three bystanders tried to intercede with a guy who was screaming racial abuse at two women on public transport, and he stabbed all three intercessors, killing two of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    > It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. Unfortunately it is the job of those sympathetic to a cause to support it, whether they are victimized or not. It's not "fair" or "right", it's just a reality that causes are advanced by those who care about them. Life is tragic that way. > Back in 2017, three bystanders tried to intercede with a guy who was screaming racial abuse at two women on public transport, and he stabbed all three intercessors, killing two of them. If he was ready to stab this woman, it is what it is. The lunatic who did the stabbing didn't get his way for free either. May they rest in peace. Lunatics are brave and motivated, and heroes must be brave as well. It'd be nice if heroes could be effective and strong as well, but we don't get to choose when life calls upon us. If that seminal Klansman were a lunatic, Daryl could have died that night. Daryl's a brave man, and that is unfortunately what is called for.
    - geofft 7y ago
      But the daughter who wants to marry her boyfriend has no interest in the cause of getting her parents to change their minds - she has an interest in the cause of marrying her boyfriend. It is her job to find the most effective way to do that, which might mean cutting her racist parents out of her life. It is not her job to find the kindest way to do that and put off her marriage possibly indefinitely. It's not fair or right either. Life is tragic that way. Sometimes your kids find no need to empathize with you.

anigbrowl 7y ago

Because when push comes to shove those without teeth will be bitten. Those who are able to leverage force (whether economic, political, or physical) frequently do so. People who are wrong about something are still people, and you won't notice when you're wrong like them, so why can't you empathize sometimes? Oh dear no. Sure, they're still people, but if they've chosen to be mean about their views eventually they're going to be treated with reciprocity. It is not valid to say that 'you won't notice when you're wrong' as many people actively engage in self-reflection and other approaches so as to improve their decision-making. When those asking for empathy habitually deny it to others, it's reasonable to question whether their request is made in good faith or is a mere gambit. The more a person's behavior resembles the latter, the more reasonable it is to cut them off.