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> Unions are just corporations for labor. Not necessarily, some are democratic, like some in Sweden. The IWW is an example of an alternative to the centralized

> Unions are just corporations for labor. Not necessarily, some are democratic, like some in Sweden. The IWW is an example of an alternative to the centralized unions [1]. 1. https://www.iww.org/about/official/OBU https://www.iww.org/about/official/OBU

toomuchtodo 7y ago
My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members.
- guerrilla 7y ago
  Certainly.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members. But that's the problem. The employee faces the same asymmetry when dealing with the union as dealing with the employer -- a single individual has difficulty driving a change in organizational behavior. It's harder for an individual to fix a bad union than to leave the company for one without that union, so that's what many people will do. Which makes it even harder for anyone to do it your way, because many of the people who agree that there is a problem will have left.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    > It's harder for an individual to fix a bad union than to leave the company for one without that union Is that accurate?
    - bsanr2 7y ago
      Maybe? But it's like saying that it's harder to fix a bad country than to leave for another country, so its accuracy is possibly less important than its rationality.
      - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
        It's a lot easier to switch employers than switch countries. Most people in fact do switch employers multiple times throughout their lives, whereas most people don't ever move to a different country from where they were born. That's especially true when there are other jobs in the same industry and the same city but at a different company.
        bsanr2 7y ago
        That depends on which country you are born into. There are several million South American immigrants living undocumented in the US who would beg to differ with that statement. Likewise, there are many expats who've chosen staying with a company over staying in their country. Finding an employer that treats you well may be harder than finding a country that treats you well in many instances.
parineum 7y ago
Corporations are democratic too. Board meetings are all about voting. Emoloyees aren't part of the corporation any more than the widgets they make are.
- guerrilla 7y ago
  > Emoloyees aren't part of the corporation any more than the widgets they make are. Which is why they're not democratic, opposed to say cooperatives.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members.

guerrilla 7y ago
Certainly.
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members. But that's the problem. The employee faces the same asymmetry when dealing with the union as dealing with the employer -- a single individual has difficulty driving a change in organizational behavior. It's harder for an individual to fix a bad union than to leave the company for one without that union, so that's what many people will do. Which makes it even harder for anyone to do it your way, because many of the people who agree that there is a problem will have left.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  > It's harder for an individual to fix a bad union than to leave the company for one without that union Is that accurate?
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    Maybe? But it's like saying that it's harder to fix a bad country than to leave for another country, so its accuracy is possibly less important than its rationality.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      It's a lot easier to switch employers than switch countries. Most people in fact do switch employers multiple times throughout their lives, whereas most people don't ever move to a different country from where they were born. That's especially true when there are other jobs in the same industry and the same city but at a different company.
      - bsanr2 7y ago
        That depends on which country you are born into. There are several million South American immigrants living undocumented in the US who would beg to differ with that statement. Likewise, there are many expats who've chosen staying with a company over staying in their country. Finding an employer that treats you well may be harder than finding a country that treats you well in many instances.

parineum 7y ago

Corporations are democratic too. Board meetings are all about voting. Emoloyees aren't part of the corporation any more than the widgets they make are.

guerrilla 7y ago
> Emoloyees aren't part of the corporation any more than the widgets they make are. Which is why they're not democratic, opposed to say cooperatives.