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Social Security trust fund in USA holds Treasury bonds of enormous denominations like 100 million as well.

by JJMcJ 7y ago

parsimo2010 7y ago
The distinction is that a bond is a piece of paper that can be exchanged for money, but is not legal tender. A 100 million GBP note is literally money and could theoretically be spent at a store. It’s not in circulation and you couldn’t get change for a note that big, but you could theoretically spend it if you got your hands on one.
- sterlind 7y ago
  Making change will be a neat trick, though.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > A 100 million GBP note is literally money and could theoretically be spent at a store. True, but only in the same sense that you could theoretically spend a barrel of oil at the store. The "legal tender" language you see printed on US currency is unrelated to commercial transactions. To the extent that it still has force, it comes from laws governing financial transactions -- specifically, if someone gets a court judgment that you owe them something, they have to accept currency.
  - parsimo2010 7y ago
    You can always barter/trade goods and services, but you are not required to accept these goods or services as payment. Legal tender means that the government says "this is money" and they guarantee its value and require that it must be accepted to pay off debts. As in, within the USA a restaurant must accept US dollars as payment for a meal, but they are not obligated to accept a barrel of oil (or a bond), not matter how valuable the barrel may be. You could (again, totally theoretically) pay for dinner with a Titan at any restaurant in the UK, but restaurants in the USA are not required to accept Social Security bonds as payment, so even if you had a million dollar bond in your pocket you could end up in jail for failing to pay for your meal. Just to clarify: no, you cannot spend a barrel of oil (or Social Security bond) in the same sense as you could spend a 100 million pound note.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > As in, within the USA a restaurant must accept US dollars as payment for a meal, but they are not obligated to accept a barrel of oil (or a bond), not matter how valuable the barrel may be. This is not true. The restaurant can only be compelled to accept the dollars if they sue you and get a judgment against you. That judgment will be denominated in dollars, and if you present that amount of dollars you'll be free of your obligation to the restaurant. (Even if they refuse to take them.) For the common case of a parking garage that charges dollars to park and won't take $20 bills, that garage is entirely on the right side of the law, and you cannot legally compel them to take the twenty, regardless of the text "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" printed on it.
      - parsimo2010 7y ago
        Sigh You eat at a restaurant, and offer to pay with a barrel of oil (or bond). The restaurant sues, and the judge orders you to pay money, and the restaurant does not have to accept the barrel of oil. You were not able to spend the oil (or bond). You eat at the same restaurant, and offer to pay with a Titan. The restaurant refuses, and sues. The judge orders you to pay with money, and you offer up the Titan again. The restaurant must either take the Titan, or give you the meal for free. You were able to spend the Titan. Businesses can decide whether or not to accept certain denominations at the point of sale, but if all I have is a $100 bill and a service has already been rendered, they can either take the $100 bill then, or sue me and take the $100 bill later. That is not the case with a barrel of oil. So for the last time: no, you cannot spend a barrel of oil like you can a 100 million GBP note. You cannot spend a bond like you can a Titan (this is the distinction that set off this chain of comments). Banknotes issued by the Bank of England are legal tender in the UK, bonds are not.
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        > Sigh Really solid argument here. I notice you switched my example from a parking garage to a restaurant. The normal model of a restaurant meal is that the restaurant gives you food, and then, later, you owe them money. Without settlement, you owe them a debt. You were only able to spend the Titan by tricking the restaurant into giving you free food. It's very rare for commercial transactions to take this form, of complete delivery by one side followed only after delivery is complete -- and the delivered goods have been destroyed -- by any payment whatever. The model of a parking garage, by contrast, is that you give them your car and then, later, you want to buy it back. Until you choose to pay in a manner they accept, they'll keep your car. This isn't much of a victory for you. > So for the last time: no, you cannot spend a barrel of oil like you can a 100 million GBP note. Once again, yes, you can. Try to spend a 100 million GBP note. You'll find that you can't. (Among many other more serious problems, how would the other party make change?) It's easier to spend the barrel of oil, and you do that on the same terms -- raw negotiation -- that apply to the note.
- 6nf 7y ago
  If it was 1 million GBP then maaaaaybe you'd be able to spend it somewhere (e.g. a casino might take it from a VIP high roller I guess?) but at 100 million I don't think you'd be able to do anything in practice besides take it back to the government directly.

Social Security trust fund in USA holds Treasury bonds of enormous denominations like 100 million as well.

by JJMcJ 7y ago

Social Security trust fund in USA holds Treasury bonds of enormous denominations like 100 million as well.

parsimo2010 7y ago

The distinction is that a bond is a piece of paper that can be exchanged for money, but is not legal tender. A 100 million GBP note is literally money and could theoretically be spent at a store. It’s not in circulation and you couldn’t get change for a note that big, but you could theoretically spend it if you got your hands on one.

sterlind 7y ago
Making change will be a neat trick, though.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> A 100 million GBP note is literally money and could theoretically be spent at a store. True, but only in the same sense that you could theoretically spend a barrel of oil at the store. The "legal tender" language you see printed on US currency is unrelated to commercial transactions. To the extent that it still has force, it comes from laws governing financial transactions -- specifically, if someone gets a court judgment that you owe them something, they have to accept currency.
- parsimo2010 7y ago
  You can always barter/trade goods and services, but you are not required to accept these goods or services as payment. Legal tender means that the government says "this is money" and they guarantee its value and require that it must be accepted to pay off debts. As in, within the USA a restaurant must accept US dollars as payment for a meal, but they are not obligated to accept a barrel of oil (or a bond), not matter how valuable the barrel may be. You could (again, totally theoretically) pay for dinner with a Titan at any restaurant in the UK, but restaurants in the USA are not required to accept Social Security bonds as payment, so even if you had a million dollar bond in your pocket you could end up in jail for failing to pay for your meal. Just to clarify: no, you cannot spend a barrel of oil (or Social Security bond) in the same sense as you could spend a 100 million pound note.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > As in, within the USA a restaurant must accept US dollars as payment for a meal, but they are not obligated to accept a barrel of oil (or a bond), not matter how valuable the barrel may be. This is not true. The restaurant can only be compelled to accept the dollars if they sue you and get a judgment against you. That judgment will be denominated in dollars, and if you present that amount of dollars you'll be free of your obligation to the restaurant. (Even if they refuse to take them.) For the common case of a parking garage that charges dollars to park and won't take $20 bills, that garage is entirely on the right side of the law, and you cannot legally compel them to take the twenty, regardless of the text "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" printed on it.
    - parsimo2010 7y ago
      Sigh You eat at a restaurant, and offer to pay with a barrel of oil (or bond). The restaurant sues, and the judge orders you to pay money, and the restaurant does not have to accept the barrel of oil. You were not able to spend the oil (or bond). You eat at the same restaurant, and offer to pay with a Titan. The restaurant refuses, and sues. The judge orders you to pay with money, and you offer up the Titan again. The restaurant must either take the Titan, or give you the meal for free. You were able to spend the Titan. Businesses can decide whether or not to accept certain denominations at the point of sale, but if all I have is a $100 bill and a service has already been rendered, they can either take the $100 bill then, or sue me and take the $100 bill later. That is not the case with a barrel of oil. So for the last time: no, you cannot spend a barrel of oil like you can a 100 million GBP note. You cannot spend a bond like you can a Titan (this is the distinction that set off this chain of comments). Banknotes issued by the Bank of England are legal tender in the UK, bonds are not.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        > Sigh Really solid argument here. I notice you switched my example from a parking garage to a restaurant. The normal model of a restaurant meal is that the restaurant gives you food, and then, later, you owe them money. Without settlement, you owe them a debt. You were only able to spend the Titan by tricking the restaurant into giving you free food. It's very rare for commercial transactions to take this form, of complete delivery by one side followed only after delivery is complete -- and the delivered goods have been destroyed -- by any payment whatever. The model of a parking garage, by contrast, is that you give them your car and then, later, you want to buy it back. Until you choose to pay in a manner they accept, they'll keep your car. This isn't much of a victory for you. > So for the last time: no, you cannot spend a barrel of oil like you can a 100 million GBP note. Once again, yes, you can. Try to spend a 100 million GBP note. You'll find that you can't. (Among many other more serious problems, how would the other party make change?) It's easier to spend the barrel of oil, and you do that on the same terms -- raw negotiation -- that apply to the note.
6nf 7y ago
If it was 1 million GBP then maaaaaybe you'd be able to spend it somewhere (e.g. a casino might take it from a VIP high roller I guess?) but at 100 million I don't think you'd be able to do anything in practice besides take it back to the government directly.