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Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize
- adamnemecek 7y agoIt's funny how progressive everyone is until it impacts their bottom line.
- entropea 7y agoThey really only care about the social aspect so they can use it as PR. LGBT & the rainbow flag sell really well. The second anything challenges capital, all gloves are off.
- danans 7y agoHow can you be so sure that every progressive at Google opposes this? Speaking only for myself, I support their unionization bid.
- statusquoantefa 7y agoIt's funny how everybody covets more power and more money, employers and employees alike, and always want to wrap it all up in a facade of being the moral choice.
- stjohnswarts 7y agoUnions are as much about fairness as "more money". People genuinely want better work conditions, better hours, and better benefits just as much as "more money".
- cobookman 7y agoShould replace Google with HCL. The actual employer and one lobbying against unionization
- KirinDave 7y agoWell, its Google's responsibility in this to make it clear unlawful anti-union activities are grounds for terminating contracts. They have a lot of the power here and if they set a precedent, a lot of other companies can follow.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y agoThat's actually not Google's responsibility. It's the government's. I mean, it would be a nice thing for Google to do, but Google is not law enforcement. It's important not to assign the responsibilities of the state to a private company, as that inevitably leads to disappointment. I'll also just point out that Google probably lacks a sufficient, just apparatus to evaluate the claims being made. I mean, USW claims that illegal anti-union activities are occurring. HCL would probably deny those claims. Google is not a detective agency, and it shouldn't be. If it observes illegal activities occurring on its own property, or has substantial knowledge of them, that would be one thing, but I imagine that if HCL is doing this dirty stuff they are not going to make it obvious. Finally, I doubt the unionizing HCL workers would appreciate the remedy that some people here are proposing. People are saying to terminate the contract with HCL. What? What good would that do? Do you think the unionizing workers would appreciate having their positions eliminated? If anything should be considered anti-union, this proposed remedy is it!
- erikpukinskis 7y agoI do think it’s Google’s responsibility to ensure their suppliers are adhering to basic standards of decency, whatever Google thinks decency is. The government has nothing to do with that. I don’t think the government should be adjudicating virtue, nor do I think companies can say “I outsourced that part of my product, so it’s not my concern how it gets made!”
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y agoI agree with your broad claim, but the devil is in the details. Google should presumably have an element in their contracts that says that contracting companies should not do anything illegal with respect to their employees. Perhaps there should even be a minimum wage requirement. However, I do not think it is Google's responsibility to adjudicate and investigate whether a particular anti-union activity on the part of a contracting partner crosses the line of legality.
- tyingq 7y ago"HCL employee and union organizer Ben Gwin says HCL workers make between $30,000-60,000 a year, and it varies widely." That's really low. I wonder what kind of work they do for Google.
- benologist 7y agoI think the important thing is they contribute to Google's wealth, which includes over $100 billion in savings.
- Operyl 7y agoIf I recall correctly, generally janitorial, stuff like that now. EDIT: geez, sorry guys, I already admitted I misremembered down below. Sorry :/
- danans 7y agoAccording to their website, they are an India-based IT services contractor. Not janitorial.
- dev_dull 7y agoThe painfully obvious answer is that the work is low skill. Why? Because the job market in the Bay Area is such that high skilled labor can easily and quickly find more gainful employment. It doesn’t make it better for them to earn less, and a union is one way to group high and low skill labor pool such as the whole can have a better quality of life.
- Aloha 7y agoMaybe this is the way it shapes out - the contractors of the new economy are equivalent to the hourly worker in the old economy, the perm people management. The contractors have representation from a union, and the perm people, none.
- claudeganon 7y agoIt probably won’t be that analogous. I suspect that having the parallel, contract labor force is at least somewhat about exerting additional control over those employees that are actually permanent. A kind of implicit threat that your employment status can be downgraded.
- Aloha 7y agoI think the threat of firing is more relevant - no one gets downgraded to a contractor, you just get pushed out the door
- claudeganon 7y agoPeople get downgraded to contract labor after being fired from FTE jobs all the time. This broader trend of increasing tenuousness of employment is part of what is driving the upswell in labor organizing.
- 1-6 7y agoGood, if unions can make it less appealing for Google to hire less temp, vendors, and contractors, they might hire more full time employees. There's already a chasm forming between TVCs and FTEs. It's only going to grow bigger.
- burtonator 7y agoI had a recent request for a HIGH-level position at Google that was not an FTE... they're really pushing it now.
- H8crilA 7y agoJust remember that if this happens and spreads out the insane software engineer salaries will be gone. Whoever makes a Silicon Valley salary is a benefactor of the current setup (which, I agree, is a little outrageous).
- baby 7y agoI think it is possible to be a benefactor and also understand that the disparity is insane.
- t-writescode 7y agoThe people that will be most impacted by any sort of equalizing are the people who make like 120-250k per year. Not silly rich, but they have a house or two that they rent out, etc. This is okay, because everyone is better off, despite the upper-middle-class being knocked down a peg or two. Yes, they’ll have to sell their 2nd rental because it’s unsustainable.
- gowld 7y agoYou think most junior Google programmers own 2 or 3 homes?
- rdiddly 7y agoI always wonder about these ham-handed anti-union efforts. I assume they must work to some degree, or they wouldn't do it. But it seems like the sudden escalation of anti-union arguments would only end up working in favor of the union. Because it betrays how against it they are. It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose it this much."
- chrisseaton 7y agoI think their angle is that it’s not in anyone’s favour to unionise.
- rapind 7y agoIt's hard to pinpoint where it originated but anti-union sentiment existed conversationally my entire life. The view being that union's are big inefficient bureaucracies of lazy people who get nothing done. It parallels the view of government I grew up with. Never really questioned where this view came from though, but my guess would be persistent long term marketing by interested parties. "Nudging" if you will. That's what socialism, union's, and co-ops are up against. A sentiment that's been groomed over a long time, that makes you feel like a Commie or a conspirator if you question it. It's lead me to think that capitalism has become a religion. If you question it you get labeled subconsciously by otherwise reasonable peers.
- imglorp 7y agoYou forgot corruption. In the US at least, unions can't seem to stay clean. Now, do the benefits to the workers in a dirty union outweigh the benefits to working for an abusive corporation? I have no idea.
- guerrilla 7y agoI always find this an odd thing to say... as if corporations and states have less corruption...
- telaelit 7y agoWe should all unionize IMHO
- ISL 7y agoWe have -- we are all citizens. If you're a citizen of the United States, here is the first sentence of the document that instantiates that union: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. At its core, it is about people agreeing to act together in order to live better lives.
- robbyt 7y agoAre H1B workers included in this union?
- stjohnswarts 7y agoI have no problem with H1B visas in the union as long as everyone is working for the same entity, why wouldn't they be welcome. Unions are to be inclusive, not exclusive, there are strength in numbers. Sometimes it's the only way to face down the money grubbing people running a company.
- walshemj 7y agoWhy would they not be as this is HCL a lot of their employees in the US will be H1b's
- viburnum 7y agoNordic social democracy isn’t magic, it’s just what you get when most workers are in a union.
- oh_sigh 7y agoCongo has about the same population as Norway. I wonder if you'd get the same results if most people were unionized there.
- tempsy 7y agoUnion tech is a very interesting startup idea. How do union organizers keep track of members, handle dues, plan, and communicate?
- advisedwang 7y agoThere are some out there, like nationbuilder.com (not union specific, but used by some)
- walshemj 7y agoThey use membership systems brought from the usual suppliers of such things and adapted to suit the differences that unions have.
- microcolonel 7y agoSo is "pro-union activity". Of course when an important vote is about to happen, the campaigns on either side of that vote will make their case.
- matchagaucho 7y agoUSW is completely the wrong union for representing Tech Workers. This will not turn out well for the Workers. The USW membership dues will start at $100+ per month and go to strike funds, Lawyers, Representatives, and Stewards who have their own self-interests in mind. This is basically just paying protection money to thugs. EDIT: For those downvoting, perhaps you'd care to kindly suggest a better union for this cause?
- stjohnswarts 7y agoRunning a union costs money, it's as simple as that. I often blow $100 bucks on a night out on the town. I would much rather pay that if I can get better hours, vacation, and negotiating power with the guys who just want to maximize quarterly profits at all social and moral costs.
- matchagaucho 7y agoThe question is... will the United Steelworkers make the best use of that money? Traditional Unions haven't evolved into the 21st century. They're still using signup sheets, phone trees, FTP, Fax machines, and Post-It notes to organize.
- Apocryphon 7y agoSounds like they could use some modernization, if only there was an industry that touts itself as being all about innovation and regularly goes around disrupting traditional ways of doing things.
- anigbrowl 7y agoI mean, it seems like your job to suggest a better one, but how about the (syndicalist) IWW?
- walshemj 7y agoIT does depend on how the USW is structured internally but its probably not the best $110 is high I am paying abut $24 for Prospect /BECTU UK as that's the main union for tech. A more realistic one might be the union that has experience representing people in the federal government organise in the public sector as well or oddly enough IATSE (film and TV non actors union)
- whytaka 7y agoI wonder to what extent the the thirst for a union could be quenched if the compensation of all members of a company were to be made public and always updated. If management wants to maintain direct negotiation with their staff, they must eliminate information asymmetry.
- iscrewyou 7y agoLook at government jobs for this example. Salaries and their limits are public record. The unions can keep them up to market rates. Unionizing isn’t a thirst that needs to be quenched. It’s simply asking for fair compensation. That’s why the contracts are up after a certain time so everything can be negotiated again.
- Simulacra 7y agoBefore there were proper labor laws unions served a purpose, now it's more self-serving to the coffers and political power of the union itself. What should be equal is tipped in the unions favor at the detriment of the company. I think that's wrong.
- S_A_P 7y agoIs there a good place to learn about what unionizing tech workers will do/is trying to accomplish? Also, isn’t being a contingent worker an implicit contract that you are willing to give up benefits and (in many cases theoretical) stability for a higher hourly rate? Obviously I don’t/can’t speak for everyone but my spouse has the full time job and insurance and I grind it out to pad the bottom line. If widespread unionization happens I don’t see any way that my take home pay will increase.
- AlexTWithBeard 7y agoI think it's a very good question. Google employees have some of the best salaries, generous benefits, plentiful vacations, massages, psychological help, free food - you name it. I see how a union can make things worse for googlers. I cannot see how unions can make things better.
- ramphastidae 7y agoThe Google employees advocating for unionization are contractors and do not enjoy the benefits you mentioned.
- S_A_P 7y agoWhich again brings to mind the question- if you want those great benefits you could try to get hired as an employee. Or come on as a contractor and prove yourself to the company. If you are a contractor you are trading that for higher per hour wages. In my industry in the Houston area the most I could ever expect to make as a developer a specific niche is roughly 150k plus or minus 30k. As a contractor on a good year I can triple that. Unionizing Would only bring that number down.
- S_A_P 7y agoThis isn’t a hill I am trying to die on. And I would be happy to hear dissenting opinions. From my perspective, a contractor!= to an employee and there are trade offs associated with this difference. If you want benefits and more(again theoretical most of the time) job security then you go the FTE route. I’m not going to use examples of bad unions to argue my point and I even think in some cases they could make sense. I even think employees at google in a union make sense. But contractor? It is a low drag way to get people in and out the door without a bunch of red tape. Unionizing would make this not the case and likely just prevent contractors from being used. This is a case by case scenario and I think a lot of start ups are using contractors as employees just to try and make their business viable. Again I would love to hear a different view on this, I don’t know that I’m an expert on this but seeing things from the perspective of being an employee/contractor/business owner is what has informed my point of view here.
- tomohawk 7y agoTo really make a dent, put a stop to H1B. It is an unnecessary program. All people doing work here should be citizens or green card holders. The employer should not have any say about this or sway over the employees about their status. People should be free to choose their employer and change their employer without entanglement of H1B.
- linuxdude314 7y agoI sort of shocked contractors at Google want a union. Typically contractors make more in total comp than full time employees. I suspect this is not the case there, but in general it’s true.
- Forge36 7y agoI've never seen that at a job I worked at. While I know other fields where this can be the case (typically housing related), Google's difference was rather extreme
- ShadowKitten 7y ago"HCL itself would be violating the National Labor Relations Board law if the company fired workers for forming a union, but Gyrgo is concerned the union can’t protect them from the work they do with Google, since they don’t actually work for Google." In other words: Google won't be violating the law if the company fired workers for forming a union because they will be doing so using a proxy organization as a scapegoat. This in effect allows them to circumvent the law referenced above. Complete horseshit
- MiroF 7y agoLabor law in the United States is so obviously broken, I'm sort of amazed that it isn't talked about more. Even beyond unionization, the fact that I had to waive my right to sue my employer for gender or racial discrimination in the courts (in favor of a private arbitrator they hire) as a condition of getting the job is just bullshit.
- darren0 7y agoI don't understand how a contractor unionizing gives them any more power over Google. Either which way they are a contractor and have to negotiate a contract. This article seems to imply the workers have an issue with Google, but unionizing just gives them power over HCL. So are they not happy with HCL?
- kebman 7y agoI wouldn't worry too much. Good working conditions are a boon to both the employer and the employee. A good union will negotiate that to the benefit of both. The reason is simple. If union negotiations lead to worse profits, then employees risk the whole business toppling, and then everyone loses. However, too much job security can actually make it harder to get a new job, once you need it, as it makes it harder to fire underperforming employees. The net effect of it, are employers who are extremely picky and careful about hiring anyone new, which is pretty muh bad for the whole economy.
- ycombonator 7y agoHCL is an Indian outsourcing company and they will do everything in their power (paying off politicians) to quash this.
- w1nst0nsm1th 7y agoNot to say, but historically, the only parties against unions are fascist and nazy, two far right mouvements. As such, they didn't be concerned so much with workers status and wellbeing than the corporate interest financing their parties. The only reason a member of the working class to be against union is because they are either paid to be so or because they have been brainwashed by anti-union messaging. As I said sometimes, far right leaning workers have traded their social rights in order to piss off black people and the jews.
- HonkHill 7y agoNazi is short for National Socialist. Socialism is a left wing machine. There is a far left group called Democratic Socialists of America. > As I said sometimes, far right leaning workers have traded their social rights in order to piss off black people and the jews. What is one of the social rights which has been given up by far right workers and why did this upset blacks and Jews?
- baq 7y agoWhere are the anti-HR movements I ask, only half jokingly?
- no_user 7y agoReally unions for Tech works from IT services companies. God bless tech industry. Not good for anyone.