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Capitalism is not going to fix climate change. This has to be a government-driven manhattan-project/moon-shot/new deal-project where no profit motive is involv

Capitalism is not going to fix climate change. This has to be a government-driven manhattan-project/moon-shot/new deal-project where no profit motive is involved at all.

chrisco255 7y ago
So communism will save us? Why am I not surprised this is the suggestion?
rogerkirkness 7y ago
I think that we should take what we can get. I'm not opposed to what you're saying working, but it's almost certainly not going to work. You have to align incentives.
roenxi 7y ago
We had an article just yesterday titled "Solar and Wind Power So Cheap They’re Outgrowing Subsidies" and there is no reason to believe they are going to reach parity with fossil fuels then stop improving. Why don't you think capitalism is going to fix climate change? If clean is cheaper, the capitalists will be using it. With gusto. If prices reach parity, then the whole economic system will basically go into autopilot using & improving the technology, let alone the influence all the private interest groups who want research into clean tech.
- TOGoS 7y ago
  "There's no competitive advantage in saving the planet." Capitalists will always externalize costs if they can. Sometimes that means bribing politicians to change the rules or look the other way. It's very nice that solar panels are getting cheap, but electricity production is only one of many problems that we're facing. Like overfishing, for example. There's profit to be made by dragging that last fish out of the ocean, y'know.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    > Like overfishing, for example. There's profit to be made by dragging that last fish out of the ocean, y'know. Of course not, markets don't work without property rights. But there is money on banning high-sea fishing so you can sell more of your farmed fish (and help the environment as a side-effect), and some companies are pushing for that.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20669465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20669465
- PeterStuer 7y ago
  By relocation all the most devastating envirnmental impacts of their unsustainable consumption feeding industry to poorer countries?
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I haven't read the book, but on a more microeconomic scale, businesses that produce more trash have lower profit margins. This is a very well known phenomenon and gets used to make a business case for doing the right thing out of enlightened self interest: Don't do it for some nebulous sense of virtue. Do it to fatten your bottom line. In restaurants and catering businesses, profit margins are so slim that upgrading to lightbulbs and appliances that use less energy can put a business in the black that has been struggling.
    - PeterStuer 7y ago
      Reference needed. This is 100% contrary to my experiences in contacts with businesses, as most (not all, typical exceptions are those that either are semi-charities or some that have made ecology the focus of their brand identity, although the latter contain a group that strongly depends on greenwashing vs actual environmental action) will cut every corner on regulation that tries to price in some of the negative externalities and then some.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        How Your Business Can Cut Costs by Reducing Waste https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/how-your-business-can-cut-costs-by-reducing-wastes https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/how-your-business-can-cut-costs... Does Corporate Social Responsibility Increase Profits? https://business-ethics.com/2015/05/05/does-corporate-social-responsibility-increase-profits/ https://business-ethics.com/2015/05/05/does-corporate-social... Good business: Why placing ethics over profits pays off https://www.philips.com/a-w/about/news/archive/blogs/innovation-matters/good-business-why-placing-ethics-over-profits-pays-off.html https://www.philips.com/a-w/about/news/archive/blogs/innovat... 5 Simple Ways to Improve Your Profit Margins https://www.inc.com/david-finkel/5-simple-ways-to-improve-your-profit-margins.html https://www.inc.com/david-finkel/5-simple-ways-to-improve-yo... Top 10 Energy Conservation Tips for Restaurants https://www.webstaurantstore.com/article/141/energy-conservation-tips-for-restaurants.html https://www.webstaurantstore.com/article/141/energy-conserva... Of all commercial buildings, restaurants use the highest amount of energy per square metre. In fact, UK Power and the Family Hospitality Group estimate that anywhere between 5 to 15% of a restaurant’s total expenditure can be taken up by energy alone! Considering that the average profit margin of a full-service restaurant is usually less than 10% of gross revenue – energy consumption suddenly becomes a BIG financial concern. https://www.dexma.com/energy-efficiency-in-restaurants-pubs/ https://www.dexma.com/energy-efficiency-in-restaurants-pubs/
jiriknesl 7y ago
"Capitalism is not going to fix climate change" is the same as "(any other favorite ideology of your choice) is not going to fix climate change". No ideology cannot fix anything. Only people can fix things. People fix things they really care about enough to want to fix them. If people don't care about global warming enough to do real steps, no ideology will fix it. And honestly, we have so many other problems, like obesity explosion, need for retirement reform, need for education reform, potential end of antibiotics, etc. that I am glad that people do care about other things too.
- PeterStuer 7y ago
  Except that the instrument of abstinence is not a possible solution under capitalism.
scottLobster 7y ago
Why not both?
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Either way massive projects like the Manhattan and Apollo projects were made possible by capitalism.
tim333 7y ago
Capitalism is a tool/system. If you give it the right incentives eg. carbon pricing it does good stuff. If not it can do bad stuff.

Capitalism is not going to fix climate change. This has to be a government-driven manhattan-project/moon-shot/new deal-project where no profit motive is involved at all.

chrisco255 7y ago

So communism will save us? Why am I not surprised this is the suggestion?

rogerkirkness 7y ago

I think that we should take what we can get. I'm not opposed to what you're saying working, but it's almost certainly not going to work. You have to align incentives.

roenxi 7y ago

We had an article just yesterday titled "Solar and Wind Power So Cheap They’re Outgrowing Subsidies" and there is no reason to believe they are going to reach parity with fossil fuels then stop improving. Why don't you think capitalism is going to fix climate change? If clean is cheaper, the capitalists will be using it. With gusto. If prices reach parity, then the whole economic system will basically go into autopilot using & improving the technology, let alone the influence all the private interest groups who want research into clean tech.

TOGoS 7y ago
"There's no competitive advantage in saving the planet." Capitalists will always externalize costs if they can. Sometimes that means bribing politicians to change the rules or look the other way. It's very nice that solar panels are getting cheap, but electricity production is only one of many problems that we're facing. Like overfishing, for example. There's profit to be made by dragging that last fish out of the ocean, y'know.
- icebraining 7y ago
  > Like overfishing, for example. There's profit to be made by dragging that last fish out of the ocean, y'know. Of course not, markets don't work without property rights. But there is money on banning high-sea fishing so you can sell more of your farmed fish (and help the environment as a side-effect), and some companies are pushing for that.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20669465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20669465

PeterStuer 7y ago
By relocation all the most devastating envirnmental impacts of their unsustainable consumption feeding industry to poorer countries?
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  I haven't read the book, but on a more microeconomic scale, businesses that produce more trash have lower profit margins. This is a very well known phenomenon and gets used to make a business case for doing the right thing out of enlightened self interest: Don't do it for some nebulous sense of virtue. Do it to fatten your bottom line. In restaurants and catering businesses, profit margins are so slim that upgrading to lightbulbs and appliances that use less energy can put a business in the black that has been struggling.
  - PeterStuer 7y ago
    Reference needed. This is 100% contrary to my experiences in contacts with businesses, as most (not all, typical exceptions are those that either are semi-charities or some that have made ecology the focus of their brand identity, although the latter contain a group that strongly depends on greenwashing vs actual environmental action) will cut every corner on regulation that tries to price in some of the negative externalities and then some.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      How Your Business Can Cut Costs by Reducing Waste https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/how-your-business-can-cut-costs-by-reducing-wastes https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/how-your-business-can-cut-costs... Does Corporate Social Responsibility Increase Profits? https://business-ethics.com/2015/05/05/does-corporate-social-responsibility-increase-profits/ https://business-ethics.com/2015/05/05/does-corporate-social... Good business: Why placing ethics over profits pays off https://www.philips.com/a-w/about/news/archive/blogs/innovation-matters/good-business-why-placing-ethics-over-profits-pays-off.html https://www.philips.com/a-w/about/news/archive/blogs/innovat... 5 Simple Ways to Improve Your Profit Margins https://www.inc.com/david-finkel/5-simple-ways-to-improve-your-profit-margins.html https://www.inc.com/david-finkel/5-simple-ways-to-improve-yo... Top 10 Energy Conservation Tips for Restaurants https://www.webstaurantstore.com/article/141/energy-conservation-tips-for-restaurants.html https://www.webstaurantstore.com/article/141/energy-conserva... Of all commercial buildings, restaurants use the highest amount of energy per square metre. In fact, UK Power and the Family Hospitality Group estimate that anywhere between 5 to 15% of a restaurant’s total expenditure can be taken up by energy alone! Considering that the average profit margin of a full-service restaurant is usually less than 10% of gross revenue – energy consumption suddenly becomes a BIG financial concern. https://www.dexma.com/energy-efficiency-in-restaurants-pubs/ https://www.dexma.com/energy-efficiency-in-restaurants-pubs/

jiriknesl 7y ago

"Capitalism is not going to fix climate change" is the same as "(any other favorite ideology of your choice) is not going to fix climate change". No ideology cannot fix anything. Only people can fix things. People fix things they really care about enough to want to fix them. If people don't care about global warming enough to do real steps, no ideology will fix it. And honestly, we have so many other problems, like obesity explosion, need for retirement reform, need for education reform, potential end of antibiotics, etc. that I am glad that people do care about other things too.

PeterStuer 7y ago
Except that the instrument of abstinence is not a possible solution under capitalism.

scottLobster 7y ago

Why not both?

mytailorisrich 7y ago

Either way massive projects like the Manhattan and Apollo projects were made possible by capitalism.

tim333 7y ago

Capitalism is a tool/system. If you give it the right incentives eg. carbon pricing it does good stuff. If not it can do bad stuff.