6 ms·

> If you need to travel long distances, there's little substitute for an airplane. The emphasis here isn't on substitute, it's on "need". Not many people need

> If you need to travel long distances, there's little substitute for an airplane. The emphasis here isn't on substitute, it's on "need". Not many people need to travel long distances on a regular basis; they're just made to believe they need do.

loeg 7y ago
Price in the carbon and let consumers decide if they still need the travel. I expect a carbon offset tax wouldn't actually decrease air travel that much -- there's so much business travel that needs doing -- but it probably would slow down growth.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Definitely tax it, but I actually view a lot of the business travel as unnecessary compared to consumer travel, and that's what I'd want to get rid of first with a tax. I'm far more sympathetic to people trying to see their dying uncles or attend their sister's wedding or visiting their parents once a year than, say, professionals "needing" to attend conferences or whatever. Heck, come to think of it, if I ever saw a legit use for VR, it might well be substituting for business travel? Edit: And somewhat relevantly: business class is far less fuel-efficient too, which would suggest maybe we should get rid of first and business class altogether. Heck, forcing businesses to use economy minus for travel might itself be an easy way to get rid of some unnecessary business trips!
  - loeg 7y ago
    I don't really support arbitrary penalties on certain classes of travelers or banning, e.g., business class. Note that the corresponding inefficiency would be priced in to the carbon offset tax and business and first class travelers would still be paying their larger portion of the carbon externality.
  - chadlavi 7y ago
    I agree with you there big time. You can virtually attend a conference. FaceTime with grandma from her deathbed is not an acceptable alternative. Kicking the price of this kind of policy down to individual consumers is a great way to just make everyone really mad and get more money from business customers who will still go on not-strictly-necessary trips.
    - arbol 7y ago
      There are individual consumers that commute via plane in the UK. This shouldn't be the case and these aren't most people.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Vastly more business travel is done for sales or sales-support purposes than attending conference purposes. Humans are tribal animals; we respond to communications in person better than over video conference and we tend to trust people with whom we've shared meals and drinks. Arguing that that just shouldn't be isn't likely to change anything about business behavior. I get on airplanes across oceans because it's effective. Believe me, I'd usually rather stay at home with my family and sleep in my own bed.
    - konschubert 7y ago
      Of course you are right. That's why a certificate trade is needed, to maintain a level the playing field between you and your competitors.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      Well, to be blunt, so what? That sucks for sales stuff, it's not like I said conferences are the only things that need to change. Maybe the practices there need to change there just like for conferences and other stuff. Nobody said it's easy or nice or effective or whatever for humans to do long distance. Just that you need to start sacrificing somewhere and I sure as heck find it more reasonable and humane to start at business sales trips than family visits.
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        "So what?" Incentives. If subgroup A doesn't travel for sales, subgroup B who travels will likely outcompete them by more than the cost of the travel, or subgroup C who is large enough to have many local offices will outcompete A, making it harder for new entrants to a market to compete and concentrating business activities in select cities (which is great if you're rich enough to live in those prosperous cities). I'm not making moral value judgments here; I'm making economic value judgments as that drives much more behavior I think.
        mehrdadn 7y ago
        Whatever you do, either some subgroup will find a way to take advantage of it, or you'll find a way to mess with taxes and incentives and prices enough to mostly compensate for the side effects. That's not a counterargument for a solution, it's already a given in the problem statement. If you find some magical way to avoid any and all collateral economic damage, I'm all for it, but I don't see why people should just wait for others to come up with miracles that may never come just because some businesses will inevitably win and others will inevitably lose.
TulliusCicero 7y ago
People traveling, the tourism that is so often bemoaned, is a huge part of the connections between countries, a huge part of diversity and understanding. A world with greatly reduced air travel is a more insular and less understanding world.
- js8 7y ago
  > A world with greatly reduced air travel is a more insular and less understanding world. I don't think there is an evidence for that. It is more likely that immigration increases cultural understanding rather than travel. In any case, emissions of travel can be greatly reduced by using other modes of transport and by making the stay in the target country longer. Such a cultural shift could actually even improve the understanding between nations.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > It is more likely that immigration increases cultural understanding rather than travel. What will the affect on immigration be if going back to the "old country" becomes significantly more difficult?
    - js8 7y ago
      U.S. and Canada had huge influx of immigrants from Europe in 19th and 20th century, when air travel didn't exist. It seems to me to be a basis of strong ties of these countries with Europe rather than other countries.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    > I don't think there is an evidence for that. It is more likely that immigration increases cultural understanding rather than travel. Disagree that travel doesn't matter, but even then, do you really think it being much harder to visit their home countries again will have no impact on immigration patterns? > In any case, emissions of travel can be greatly reduced by using other modes of transport Would love to hear how you propose to let Chinese and Indian immigrants in the states visit home sans airplanes > by making the stay in the target country longer. People would already take longer vacations if they could, dude. Making it harder and slower to get there isn't gonna help anything.

loeg 7y ago

Price in the carbon and let consumers decide if they still need the travel. I expect a carbon offset tax wouldn't actually decrease air travel that much -- there's so much business travel that needs doing -- but it probably would slow down growth.

mehrdadn 7y ago
Definitely tax it, but I actually view a lot of the business travel as unnecessary compared to consumer travel, and that's what I'd want to get rid of first with a tax. I'm far more sympathetic to people trying to see their dying uncles or attend their sister's wedding or visiting their parents once a year than, say, professionals "needing" to attend conferences or whatever. Heck, come to think of it, if I ever saw a legit use for VR, it might well be substituting for business travel? Edit: And somewhat relevantly: business class is far less fuel-efficient too, which would suggest maybe we should get rid of first and business class altogether. Heck, forcing businesses to use economy minus for travel might itself be an easy way to get rid of some unnecessary business trips!
- loeg 7y ago
  I don't really support arbitrary penalties on certain classes of travelers or banning, e.g., business class. Note that the corresponding inefficiency would be priced in to the carbon offset tax and business and first class travelers would still be paying their larger portion of the carbon externality.
- chadlavi 7y ago
  I agree with you there big time. You can virtually attend a conference. FaceTime with grandma from her deathbed is not an acceptable alternative. Kicking the price of this kind of policy down to individual consumers is a great way to just make everyone really mad and get more money from business customers who will still go on not-strictly-necessary trips.
  - arbol 7y ago
    There are individual consumers that commute via plane in the UK. This shouldn't be the case and these aren't most people.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Vastly more business travel is done for sales or sales-support purposes than attending conference purposes. Humans are tribal animals; we respond to communications in person better than over video conference and we tend to trust people with whom we've shared meals and drinks. Arguing that that just shouldn't be isn't likely to change anything about business behavior. I get on airplanes across oceans because it's effective. Believe me, I'd usually rather stay at home with my family and sleep in my own bed.
  - konschubert 7y ago
    Of course you are right. That's why a certificate trade is needed, to maintain a level the playing field between you and your competitors.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    Well, to be blunt, so what? That sucks for sales stuff, it's not like I said conferences are the only things that need to change. Maybe the practices there need to change there just like for conferences and other stuff. Nobody said it's easy or nice or effective or whatever for humans to do long distance. Just that you need to start sacrificing somewhere and I sure as heck find it more reasonable and humane to start at business sales trips than family visits.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      "So what?" Incentives. If subgroup A doesn't travel for sales, subgroup B who travels will likely outcompete them by more than the cost of the travel, or subgroup C who is large enough to have many local offices will outcompete A, making it harder for new entrants to a market to compete and concentrating business activities in select cities (which is great if you're rich enough to live in those prosperous cities). I'm not making moral value judgments here; I'm making economic value judgments as that drives much more behavior I think.
      - mehrdadn 7y ago
        Whatever you do, either some subgroup will find a way to take advantage of it, or you'll find a way to mess with taxes and incentives and prices enough to mostly compensate for the side effects. That's not a counterargument for a solution, it's already a given in the problem statement. If you find some magical way to avoid any and all collateral economic damage, I'm all for it, but I don't see why people should just wait for others to come up with miracles that may never come just because some businesses will inevitably win and others will inevitably lose.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

People traveling, the tourism that is so often bemoaned, is a huge part of the connections between countries, a huge part of diversity and understanding. A world with greatly reduced air travel is a more insular and less understanding world.

js8 7y ago
> A world with greatly reduced air travel is a more insular and less understanding world. I don't think there is an evidence for that. It is more likely that immigration increases cultural understanding rather than travel. In any case, emissions of travel can be greatly reduced by using other modes of transport and by making the stay in the target country longer. Such a cultural shift could actually even improve the understanding between nations.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > It is more likely that immigration increases cultural understanding rather than travel. What will the affect on immigration be if going back to the "old country" becomes significantly more difficult?
  - js8 7y ago
    U.S. and Canada had huge influx of immigrants from Europe in 19th and 20th century, when air travel didn't exist. It seems to me to be a basis of strong ties of these countries with Europe rather than other countries.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  > I don't think there is an evidence for that. It is more likely that immigration increases cultural understanding rather than travel. Disagree that travel doesn't matter, but even then, do you really think it being much harder to visit their home countries again will have no impact on immigration patterns? > In any case, emissions of travel can be greatly reduced by using other modes of transport Would love to hear how you propose to let Chinese and Indian immigrants in the states visit home sans airplanes > by making the stay in the target country longer. People would already take longer vacations if they could, dude. Making it harder and slower to get there isn't gonna help anything.