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Belgian police forced to stop using facial recognition (Dutch)

104 points by Tharkun 7y ago

Insanity 7y ago
It works quite well but it does always make me feel uncomfortable. I wouldn't mind waiting in line longer just to skip it. (And I do when I can). Edit: also don't bother translating or reading the comments on that website. They are youtube-comment quality.
- itcrowd 7y ago
  I think the banned cameras are general surveillance cameras, not the ones used for check-in or boarding. edit: the cameras aren't being banned, the facial recognition software must be disabled
Ambroos 7y ago
For clarity, this is a general surveillance facial recognition project that was started only a few months ago (with security cameras). The automated passport gates (for Belgian eIDs and EU biometric passports) are not included or affected and will keep working (when they're not broken or closed).
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Here in the UK we have cameras that will automatically scan car number plates to check for insurance and road tax. In principle I would see nothing wrong with having the same with facial recognition for wanted people (frankly, why would this not exist if technology is available?), though I'm guessing that people on the run would quickly learn to avoid them. I feel we are in a phase of facial recognition development in which some people reject it as a matter of principle or because they only see the worst that might be done with it. I'm hoping for a more balanced approach (not holding my breath...).
- 1984_beckons 7y ago
  Car number plates have a consistent, mandated font with a set of regular formats on high-contrast backgrounds that makes it almost trivially easy for computer vision to extract a number plate from an image of a car. Cars are licenced transport. You are required to a) tax and maintain your vehicle b) identify who was driving the vehicle if you are the registered owner and requested to do so by the police and c) not obscure or obfuscate your number plate. Faces are not licenced, are uniquely identifiable personal data - ignoring the enormous false positive detection rate from current technology - and everyone has one. Consider the implications for a supposedly free society (of which the United Kingdom no longer is one) where the state can draw arbitrary inferences from the presence of someone with a face that matches pattern X in location Y on date Z.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    Your reply illustrates my comment that some people only see the worst or try to imagine only the worst. If a facial recognition system is only linked to a database of wanted people then it won't be able to ID people not on that database. I.e. if it is no worse than a normal CCTV for everyone who is not wanted by the police. Therefore, in principle there is no negative impacts in terms of privacy or liberty compared to existing CCTVs. The only issue is technical: False positives (which I'm not sure the numbers would be 'enormous' at the moment). This is bound to improve over time and can be mitigated with the appropriate police procedures on how to respond to an alert by such a system. > for a supposedly free society (of which the United Kingdom no longer is one) Of course if that's your opinion we're not going to be able to have a discussion on the topic...
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      Faces aren't unique enough and innocent doppelgangers will eventually be abused.
    - tolien 7y ago
      Your assumption that the system throws away everything but the images of flagged people and number plates, and expires even those after some period of time, flies completely in the face of reality (e.g. the New York State Police were keeping all their collected ANPR data indefinitely [0]). A number of US states are making legal provisions to restrict how long ANPR data is retained for [2] - are they just tech pessimists too? > False positives (which I'm not sure the numbers would be 'enormous' at the moment) A 98% false positive rate [1] seems quite enormous. > The Metropolitan Police’s system has produced 104 alerts of which only two were later confirmed to be positive matches In another deployment: > overall only 234 alerts – fewer than 10 per cent – were correct matches. At least in the UK you're not going to be stopped by a police officer with a gun drawn on the basis of a failed read [3]. 0: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/your-car-tracked-the-rapid-rise-of-license-plate-readers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/your-car-tracked... 1: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/met-police-facial-recognition-success-south-wales-trial-home-office-false-positive-a8345036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/met-police-f... 2: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/virginia-passes-shortest-limit-in-us-on-keeping-license-plate-reader-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/virginia-passes-... 3: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/due-to-license-plate-reader-error-cop-approaches-innocent-man-weapon-in-hand/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/due-to-license-p...
eduardo2002 7y ago
hi
- ozzmotik 7y ago
  hello
jhncls 7y ago
The article at the Flemish tv [0] has a little more background (also in Dutch, but often they create specific English versions for this kind of articles, which can take some time [1]). They mention 4 reasons for the forced stop: - There was no prior study about possible the privacy implications. - No approval was asked before the project started although such an approval is mandatory under GDPR. - Some changes in law are needed to allow to keep such a database. Current laws only permit licence plate databases. - There were too many false positives. [0] https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/09/20/politie-mag-geen-automatische-gezichtsherkenning-gebruiken-op-de.app/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/09/20/politie-mag-geen-aut... [1] https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/
lacampbell 7y ago
What's Zaventem? Is that a town?
- the_svd_doctor 7y ago
  Yes. That's also where the national airport is.
  - rejschaap 7y ago
    The article is about the airport, not about the town. The airport is often called Zaventem because of its location. International travelers will know it by the name Brussels airport.
    - lacampbell 7y ago
      Yeah I can't really read Dutch. I enjoy attempting it though, like a crossword puzzle.
jszymborski 7y ago
Here's a translated version I ran on DeepL.com https://hastebin.com/raw/wiwerobayi https://hastebin.com/raw/wiwerobayi

104 points by Tharkun 7y ago

It works quite well but it does always make me feel uncomfortable. I wouldn't mind waiting in line longer just to skip it. (And I do when I can). Edit: also don't bother translating or reading the comments on that website. They are youtube-comment quality.

itcrowd 7y ago
I think the banned cameras are general surveillance cameras, not the ones used for check-in or boarding. edit: the cameras aren't being banned, the facial recognition software must be disabled

Ambroos 7y ago

For clarity, this is a general surveillance facial recognition project that was started only a few months ago (with security cameras). The automated passport gates (for Belgian eIDs and EU biometric passports) are not included or affected and will keep working (when they're not broken or closed).

mytailorisrich 7y ago

Here in the UK we have cameras that will automatically scan car number plates to check for insurance and road tax. In principle I would see nothing wrong with having the same with facial recognition for wanted people (frankly, why would this not exist if technology is available?), though I'm guessing that people on the run would quickly learn to avoid them. I feel we are in a phase of facial recognition development in which some people reject it as a matter of principle or because they only see the worst that might be done with it. I'm hoping for a more balanced approach (not holding my breath...).

1984_beckons 7y ago
Car number plates have a consistent, mandated font with a set of regular formats on high-contrast backgrounds that makes it almost trivially easy for computer vision to extract a number plate from an image of a car. Cars are licenced transport. You are required to a) tax and maintain your vehicle b) identify who was driving the vehicle if you are the registered owner and requested to do so by the police and c) not obscure or obfuscate your number plate. Faces are not licenced, are uniquely identifiable personal data - ignoring the enormous false positive detection rate from current technology - and everyone has one. Consider the implications for a supposedly free society (of which the United Kingdom no longer is one) where the state can draw arbitrary inferences from the presence of someone with a face that matches pattern X in location Y on date Z.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Your reply illustrates my comment that some people only see the worst or try to imagine only the worst. If a facial recognition system is only linked to a database of wanted people then it won't be able to ID people not on that database. I.e. if it is no worse than a normal CCTV for everyone who is not wanted by the police. Therefore, in principle there is no negative impacts in terms of privacy or liberty compared to existing CCTVs. The only issue is technical: False positives (which I'm not sure the numbers would be 'enormous' at the moment). This is bound to improve over time and can be mitigated with the appropriate police procedures on how to respond to an alert by such a system. > for a supposedly free society (of which the United Kingdom no longer is one) Of course if that's your opinion we're not going to be able to have a discussion on the topic...
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    Faces aren't unique enough and innocent doppelgangers will eventually be abused.
  - tolien 7y ago
    Your assumption that the system throws away everything but the images of flagged people and number plates, and expires even those after some period of time, flies completely in the face of reality (e.g. the New York State Police were keeping all their collected ANPR data indefinitely [0]). A number of US states are making legal provisions to restrict how long ANPR data is retained for [2] - are they just tech pessimists too? > False positives (which I'm not sure the numbers would be 'enormous' at the moment) A 98% false positive rate [1] seems quite enormous. > The Metropolitan Police’s system has produced 104 alerts of which only two were later confirmed to be positive matches In another deployment: > overall only 234 alerts – fewer than 10 per cent – were correct matches. At least in the UK you're not going to be stopped by a police officer with a gun drawn on the basis of a failed read [3]. 0: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/your-car-tracked-the-rapid-rise-of-license-plate-readers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/your-car-tracked... 1: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/met-police-facial-recognition-success-south-wales-trial-home-office-false-positive-a8345036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/met-police-f... 2: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/virginia-passes-shortest-limit-in-us-on-keeping-license-plate-reader-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/virginia-passes-... 3: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/due-to-license-plate-reader-error-cop-approaches-innocent-man-weapon-in-hand/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/due-to-license-p...

eduardo2002 7y ago

ozzmotik 7y ago
hello

jhncls 7y ago

The article at the Flemish tv [0] has a little more background (also in Dutch, but often they create specific English versions for this kind of articles, which can take some time [1]). They mention 4 reasons for the forced stop: - There was no prior study about possible the privacy implications. - No approval was asked before the project started although such an approval is mandatory under GDPR. - Some changes in law are needed to allow to keep such a database. Current laws only permit licence plate databases. - There were too many false positives. [0] https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/09/20/politie-mag-geen-automatische-gezichtsherkenning-gebruiken-op-de.app/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/09/20/politie-mag-geen-aut... [1] https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/

lacampbell 7y ago

What's Zaventem? Is that a town?

the_svd_doctor 7y ago
Yes. That's also where the national airport is.
- rejschaap 7y ago
  The article is about the airport, not about the town. The airport is often called Zaventem because of its location. International travelers will know it by the name Brussels airport.
  - lacampbell 7y ago
    Yeah I can't really read Dutch. I enjoy attempting it though, like a crossword puzzle.

jszymborski 7y ago

Here's a translated version I ran on DeepL.com https://hastebin.com/raw/wiwerobayi https://hastebin.com/raw/wiwerobayi