3 ms·

The only problem with this point of view is that, effectively, you have painted a sort of target on your back. As you say, not everyone goes to therapy (even th

The only problem with this point of view is that, effectively, you have painted a sort of target on your back. As you say, not everyone goes to therapy (even though they should). Therefore, there is still a stigma associated with those who do choose to go to therapy. That wouldn't be so bad, except there are consequences to going to therapy. Paperwork and records are generated. There are certain positions where you have to disclose any therapy that you've received (see for example Section 21 on the SF-86: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf). Then, you answer that truthfully, and your paperwork leaked. You are supposed to be open and honest with your therapist, but can you do that in good faith? Knowing that truly anything you say can come back and haunt you in the future? Even if you work through those issues and they are firmly in the past? There needs to be a way for people to truly feel secure and talk through troubling thoughts without fear of reprisal. I have personally avoided going to therapy for the fear that I would be denied opportunities if it was disclosed that I had a "mental illness". It's the same reason I refuse to obtain genetic testing or DNA sequencing for myself; if I do that and, as a result, I learn that I am potentially at risk for an illness/cancer/whatever due to my genetic makeup, undoubtedly some life or health insurance policy will use that information against me to deny coverage in the future. So I remain ignorant out of fear.

tobib 7y ago
> That wouldn't be so bad, except there are consequences to going to therapy. Paperwork and records are generated. There are certain positions where you have to disclose any therapy that you've received (see for example Section 21 on the SF-86: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf) Seeking counseling for depression/anxiety does not fall under any of the questions being asked in this form.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  ipython may be recalling the previous S21. S21 got a major update for revision 2016. See revision 2010 for the prior version: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86-non508.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86-non508.pdf Any mental health issue is covered by that question. Discussion of the change: https://news.clearancejobs.com/2016/11/29/dni-announces-change-psychological-health-question-sf-86/ https://news.clearancejobs.com/2016/11/29/dni-announces-chan...
Bootwizard 7y ago
I feel exactly the same way about DNA testing and therapy. I think is speaks more about our health industry in the US (assuming since it sounds like it) than to any personal issues with going to therapy or getting these DNA tests. Why do we live in fear of our own healthcare system? It's truly upsetting for US citizens to fear getting professional medical help. It's like if you got into a car accident and your car is totaled, but you try to fix it yourself and keep driving it around because you fear the repair costs. We're all just broken cars afraid of going to the mechanic.
AchieveLife 7y ago
Fear is created by the individual. It may be stimulated by the environment but it originates from the person. Fearing seeking help because of possible consequences is the act of creating a personal hell. There will always be consequences no matter the choice. The chance to live life without consuming fear is the missed opportunity for not seeking help.
nostrademons 7y ago
"Therefore, there is still a stigma associated with those who do choose to go to therapy." Is there really? I haven't really seen it, at least among people who I hang out with (which admittedly, include a good number of therapists. Also a good number of knowledge workers who have a therapist.) I suspect this might be class-based. The therapist market bifurcates into high-functioning professionals who can afford $400/session without insurance and just need someone to talk some feelings out, and people who really need therapy and are often referred by the school or court system. Therapists will usually take on a number of the former to pay the bills, and then a few of the latter to feel like they're doing good in the world. Who doesn't get therapy? What's left of the middle class, who are the people who usually need it the most. If you're a member of the missing middle class, who do you see who goes to therapy? Usually the latter group, the folks who are visibly mentally ill and have trouble functioning normally. You probably don't know a whole lot of corporate executives in general, and if you do, they're often fairly good at keeping quiet that they have a therapist. So you get a very distorted picture of reality. And knowing these class-based distortions, it's only when the highly-paid professionals, managers, and executives get together that they will casually remark, "Oh, my therapist said..." Occasionally you'll catch glimpses of this in media meant for this social class though, eg. TED talks or songs whose audience is primarily this class.
diminoten 7y ago
What exactly is your threat model?
- ipython 7y ago
  Threat model? I don’t expect that anyone is out to get “me” specifically. As I said, if I apply to a job that requires me to disclose my interactions with mental health professionals, I do see a non zero risk of being denied that position on that basis. Furthermore, I want to ensure the economic viability of my family. So regarding genetic testing, you have to answer questions asking whether you have pre existing conditions when applying for life or health insurance. If you know that you are x% more likely to contract a certain cancer due to your genes, do you take the chance and lie on the application? Or do you tell the truth and run the risk of being denied wholesale? There is no clear answer and so to protect the economic future of my kids, I can still choose not to know. I have not touched on the “leaking” of information which I think is where you were going with your question. While I do not consider myself interesting enough to be a target for “doxing” wouldn’t it just be easier if there was nothing to “dox” in the first place?? Just in case I do end up in a public position or otherwise targeted for harassment?
  - diminoten 7y ago
    How often do you consider possibilities that have never happened to anyone in human history, and try to account for them?
    - ipython 7y ago
      I’ll raise your snarky comment with a link: https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/dtcgenetictesting/dtcinsurancerisk https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/dtcgenetictesting/dtcinsuranc... Long story short this is a real issue and not something that “has never happened to anyone in human history”.
      - diminoten 7y ago
        That's not what we were talking about, but okay...
BeetleB 7y ago
> That wouldn't be so bad, except there are consequences to going to therapy. Paperwork and records are generated. There are certain positions where you have to disclose any therapy that you've received (see for example Section 21 on the SF-86: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf). My thoughts on this are that first and foremost, my health is more important than my career. And for SW professionals, the reality is very few jobs require disclosure. You can easily go to a mental health professional without adversely impacting your career. Regarding the national security position disclosure, from what I see: - You have to disclose a court appointed order to get mental health, or a court finding of mental incompetence. - You have to disclose a hospitalization for mental health problems. - You have to disclose any of the following: "Have you EVER been diagnosed by a physician or other health professional (for example, a psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker, or nurse practitioner) with psychotic disorder, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, delusional disorder, bipolar mood disorder, borderline personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder?" I don't know about the last two, but the rest are serious conditions that are often treated with medication and not with therapy. If you have any of them, I think it's a lot better to get help and be excluded from those jobs. Furthermore, they're about issues orthogonal to the article and most of the discussion here. You have to answer this: "Do you have a mental health or other health condition that substantially adversely affects your judgment, reliability, or trustworthiness even if you are not experiencing such symptoms today? (Note: If your judgment, reliability, or trustworthiness is not substantially adversely affected by a mental health or other condition, then you should answer "no" even if you have a mental health or other condition requiring treatment. For example, if you are in need of emotional or mental health counseling as a result of service as a first responder, service in a military combat environment, having been sexually assaulted or a victim of domestic violence, or marital issues, but your judgment, reliability or trustworthiness is not substantially adversely affected, then answer "no.")" This is an easy "No" for almost everyone. I think for most stress/anxiety related issues that one would seek help from a therapist, you would not have to disclose any of it for this form.
- ipython 7y ago
  I remember it being more invasive in the past and while I can’t find an old version to compare, there is this article outlining the changes in ~2017 to that question: https://www.keepyourclearance.com/news/sf-86-psychological-health-question-has-changed/ https://www.keepyourclearance.com/news/sf-86-psychological-h...

tobib 7y ago

vonmoltke 7y ago
ipython may be recalling the previous S21. S21 got a major update for revision 2016. See revision 2010 for the prior version: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86-non508.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86-non508.pdf Any mental health issue is covered by that question. Discussion of the change: https://news.clearancejobs.com/2016/11/29/dni-announces-change-psychological-health-question-sf-86/ https://news.clearancejobs.com/2016/11/29/dni-announces-chan...

Bootwizard 7y ago

I feel exactly the same way about DNA testing and therapy. I think is speaks more about our health industry in the US (assuming since it sounds like it) than to any personal issues with going to therapy or getting these DNA tests. Why do we live in fear of our own healthcare system? It's truly upsetting for US citizens to fear getting professional medical help. It's like if you got into a car accident and your car is totaled, but you try to fix it yourself and keep driving it around because you fear the repair costs. We're all just broken cars afraid of going to the mechanic.

AchieveLife 7y ago

Fear is created by the individual. It may be stimulated by the environment but it originates from the person. Fearing seeking help because of possible consequences is the act of creating a personal hell. There will always be consequences no matter the choice. The chance to live life without consuming fear is the missed opportunity for not seeking help.

nostrademons 7y ago

"Therefore, there is still a stigma associated with those who do choose to go to therapy." Is there really? I haven't really seen it, at least among people who I hang out with (which admittedly, include a good number of therapists. Also a good number of knowledge workers who have a therapist.) I suspect this might be class-based. The therapist market bifurcates into high-functioning professionals who can afford $400/session without insurance and just need someone to talk some feelings out, and people who really need therapy and are often referred by the school or court system. Therapists will usually take on a number of the former to pay the bills, and then a few of the latter to feel like they're doing good in the world. Who doesn't get therapy? What's left of the middle class, who are the people who usually need it the most. If you're a member of the missing middle class, who do you see who goes to therapy? Usually the latter group, the folks who are visibly mentally ill and have trouble functioning normally. You probably don't know a whole lot of corporate executives in general, and if you do, they're often fairly good at keeping quiet that they have a therapist. So you get a very distorted picture of reality. And knowing these class-based distortions, it's only when the highly-paid professionals, managers, and executives get together that they will casually remark, "Oh, my therapist said..." Occasionally you'll catch glimpses of this in media meant for this social class though, eg. TED talks or songs whose audience is primarily this class.

diminoten 7y ago

What exactly is your threat model?

ipython 7y ago
Threat model? I don’t expect that anyone is out to get “me” specifically. As I said, if I apply to a job that requires me to disclose my interactions with mental health professionals, I do see a non zero risk of being denied that position on that basis. Furthermore, I want to ensure the economic viability of my family. So regarding genetic testing, you have to answer questions asking whether you have pre existing conditions when applying for life or health insurance. If you know that you are x% more likely to contract a certain cancer due to your genes, do you take the chance and lie on the application? Or do you tell the truth and run the risk of being denied wholesale? There is no clear answer and so to protect the economic future of my kids, I can still choose not to know. I have not touched on the “leaking” of information which I think is where you were going with your question. While I do not consider myself interesting enough to be a target for “doxing” wouldn’t it just be easier if there was nothing to “dox” in the first place?? Just in case I do end up in a public position or otherwise targeted for harassment?
- diminoten 7y ago
  How often do you consider possibilities that have never happened to anyone in human history, and try to account for them?
  - ipython 7y ago
    I’ll raise your snarky comment with a link: https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/dtcgenetictesting/dtcinsurancerisk https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/dtcgenetictesting/dtcinsuranc... Long story short this is a real issue and not something that “has never happened to anyone in human history”.
    - diminoten 7y ago
      That's not what we were talking about, but okay...

BeetleB 7y ago

> That wouldn't be so bad, except there are consequences to going to therapy. Paperwork and records are generated. There are certain positions where you have to disclose any therapy that you've received (see for example Section 21 on the SF-86: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf). My thoughts on this are that first and foremost, my health is more important than my career. And for SW professionals, the reality is very few jobs require disclosure. You can easily go to a mental health professional without adversely impacting your career. Regarding the national security position disclosure, from what I see: - You have to disclose a court appointed order to get mental health, or a court finding of mental incompetence. - You have to disclose a hospitalization for mental health problems. - You have to disclose any of the following: "Have you EVER been diagnosed by a physician or other health professional (for example, a psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker, or nurse practitioner) with psychotic disorder, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, delusional disorder, bipolar mood disorder, borderline personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder?" I don't know about the last two, but the rest are serious conditions that are often treated with medication and not with therapy. If you have any of them, I think it's a lot better to get help and be excluded from those jobs. Furthermore, they're about issues orthogonal to the article and most of the discussion here. You have to answer this: "Do you have a mental health or other health condition that substantially adversely affects your judgment, reliability, or trustworthiness even if you are not experiencing such symptoms today? (Note: If your judgment, reliability, or trustworthiness is not substantially adversely affected by a mental health or other condition, then you should answer "no" even if you have a mental health or other condition requiring treatment. For example, if you are in need of emotional or mental health counseling as a result of service as a first responder, service in a military combat environment, having been sexually assaulted or a victim of domestic violence, or marital issues, but your judgment, reliability or trustworthiness is not substantially adversely affected, then answer "no.")" This is an easy "No" for almost everyone. I think for most stress/anxiety related issues that one would seek help from a therapist, you would not have to disclose any of it for this form.

ipython 7y ago
I remember it being more invasive in the past and while I can’t find an old version to compare, there is this article outlining the changes in ~2017 to that question: https://www.keepyourclearance.com/news/sf-86-psychological-health-question-has-changed/ https://www.keepyourclearance.com/news/sf-86-psychological-h...