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Apart from the (admittedly pretty pivotal for this case) unpaid overtime request part, I feel a 10 hour average is not unreasonable as long as it's not rigidly

by jarek 16y ago

Apart from the (admittedly pretty pivotal for this case) unpaid overtime request part, I feel a 10 hour average is not unreasonable as long as it's not rigidly mandated. Requiring physically being in the office for 10 hours straight five days a week is idiotic in software. Allow going home or stepping out of the office for a couple of hours for a walk in the park when the code isn't flowing or you're stuck on a dumb bug, but make it clear there's a lot of work to be done (and compensate accordingly!). If programmers like what they're doing they won't count the hours. Of course that's not going to fly with those who don't wish to work outside standard 9 to 5 -- and there's a lot of people who don't for very valid reasons -- but they're less likely to be found in a start-up anyway.

lsc 16y ago
the number of people who can effectively code for 10 hours a day for a period of months is... small. Nearly everyone I know who claims this ability spends a lot of time doing things like reading hacker news rather than coding. This, I think, is one of the tests of a manager. A bad manager loves to see people looking busy. A bad manager will hire people who claim to work 10 hours (or more!) a day. This manager will quite often stay at work with everyone else (it doesn't matter how early you show up, as long as you show up before the boss. It doesn't matter how late you leave, as long as you leave after the boss.) but he usually slips into dealing with personal business. And so does nearly everyone else. I think a much better approach is to let people figure out what their optimum productivity is. I know one guy who says "i have four good hours a day" - and he is very, very good during those four hours. But after those four hours, really, you might as well send him home to play video games or something. He's done. Expecting 10 hours a day of work on average encourages a culture of deception; a culture of "look busy" which really, isn't any good for anyone. Yeah, I want you to work as much for me as you can. But really, if you are going to work for five hours a day and screw off on facebook the other five? I'd prefer you just go home and do something fulfilling. You aren't making me any money on facebook, and destroying your home lives doesn't make me any richer. Now, there are some people who can code, consistently, for 10 hours a day. But they are dwarfed by the numbers of people who act busy for 10 hours a day to meet the expectations of management.

by jarek 16y ago

lsc 16y ago

the number of people who can effectively code for 10 hours a day for a period of months is... small. Nearly everyone I know who claims this ability spends a lot of time doing things like reading hacker news rather than coding. This, I think, is one of the tests of a manager. A bad manager loves to see people looking busy. A bad manager will hire people who claim to work 10 hours (or more!) a day. This manager will quite often stay at work with everyone else (it doesn't matter how early you show up, as long as you show up before the boss. It doesn't matter how late you leave, as long as you leave after the boss.) but he usually slips into dealing with personal business. And so does nearly everyone else. I think a much better approach is to let people figure out what their optimum productivity is. I know one guy who says "i have four good hours a day" - and he is very, very good during those four hours. But after those four hours, really, you might as well send him home to play video games or something. He's done. Expecting 10 hours a day of work on average encourages a culture of deception; a culture of "look busy" which really, isn't any good for anyone. Yeah, I want you to work as much for me as you can. But really, if you are going to work for five hours a day and screw off on facebook the other five? I'd prefer you just go home and do something fulfilling. You aren't making me any money on facebook, and destroying your home lives doesn't make me any richer. Now, there are some people who can code, consistently, for 10 hours a day. But they are dwarfed by the numbers of people who act busy for 10 hours a day to meet the expectations of management.