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I'm really excited for more viable electric vehicles. But, the claim that this is the first car for the masses when it's simply 2-3k (~33k to ~35k in USD) cheap

I'm really excited for more viable electric vehicles. But, the claim that this is the first car for the masses when it's simply 2-3k (~33k to ~35k in USD) cheaper than a Tesla model 3 is discouraging. That said, I do understand that the total cost of ownership does catch up if you keep the car long enough. I would just love to see something in the 20s, or even lower. (Further, I'm very sympathetic to the argument that reduced carbon is more important than my personal financial expense.) [edit] Thanks for all the clarification. I had no idea about VAT.

zaroth 7y ago
And that’s for a 205mi range (that will be WLTP not EPA so real world will be ~15% lower) on a 45kWh battery back that can only charge at 50kW. Top speed is 99mph, 0-60 is unannounced. The higher priced versions can charge up to 100kW. But frankly, the base model specs seem abysmal?
- close04 7y ago
  > 0-60 is unannounced Anybody looking for a mid-range Golf/ID.3 type car (excluding top models like GTI/R/etc.) cares very little about 0-100Km/h times. In the same vein they also didn't announce the Nürburgring lap times. Edit. Also based on the numbers Tesla publishes for the same car the difference between WLTP and EPA is less that 7%. Is it expected that in some cases it varies up to 15%?
  - zaroth 7y ago
    254 vs 240mi for SR+ but 348 vs 310mi for the LR.
    - close04 7y ago
      Tesla M3 SR+ is advertised as 240mi (386Km) EPA in the US vs. 409Km WLTP in the EU, a 6% difference. The LR is 310mi (~500Km) EPA vs. 560Km WLTP, a 12% difference. Assuming the tests are designed in such a way that for some reason they start to diverge massively the longer the range (6% at 240mi but 12% at 310mi) then for an ID.3 with a 210mi range there is no reason at this point to assume 15% difference but rather under 10%. Given that you obviously know the numbers your extrapolation, while it may turn out to be true, seems more bad faith than reasonable assumption at this point.
      - zaroth 7y ago
        You can’t extrapolate like that. 15% is just a rule of thumb. I had to lookup the numbers to provide the reply, I didn’t know them off hand. Some shorter range cars (e.g. BMW i3) have larger drops (19%). I just found a spreadsheet on Reddit which shows the average for all cars OP could find is a drop of 11.5% https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BvlOf89ebiT0n16ma1V2pA01sZW2tkC4W5xPy-_YNyM/htmlview?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BvlOf89ebiT0n16ma1V2...
- reitzensteinm 7y ago
  The base model has a higher range per dollar than an SR+ by a comfortable margin. Abysmal seems like a strong word...? It might not be as fast or sexy as a Tesla, but cars like this will be the bread and butter of the EV transition. 30k EUR - 19% VAT = ~$27,750 USD, or $135 per WLTP mile. SR+ is $38,990 with a range of 254, or $153 per WLTP mile.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    I think if you’re going to extrapolate a fictional ID.3 by backing out the VAT, the least you could do is compare against an SR- at $35,000 to get $137. Or alternatively the LR at 348mi WLTP range (+12.25%) for $47,990 = $138. Of course range per dollar is a funny metric because it’s like saying it’s the only thing you are paying for.
    - reitzensteinm 7y ago
      Removing the VAT is absolutely the right way to make the comparison. I didn't use EU prices for the Model 3 so as to not penalize it for tariffs and shipping. I honestly can't believe you're pushing back on that. The specs don't match up to a Model 3, but it's a much cheaper car. If they were the same price, I'd understand your distaste.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
I presume that the "under €30,000" price includes the 19% VAT, since IIRC advertised prices are required to include the VAT. The Model 3 SR+ is €44,500 in Germany. Subtract the EV credit and it seems to me that the id.3 will only slightly more than half the price of the Model 3.
Xixi 7y ago
Be careful when comparing EU prices to US prices: EU prices always include sales tax (varies by country, but 20% in France and 19% in Germany), while US prices never include them. Assuming 10% tariffs and 20% sales taxes, that bumps the $35,000 Tesla to $46,200, or about 42,000 EUR. Indeed the cheapest Model 3 that I could find in France costs 42,600 EUR. If the Volkswagen ID.3 comes in somewhere between 26,000 EUR and 30,000 EUR, it will indeed be quite a bit cheaper.
- bearjaws 7y ago
  America is going to charge 20% to import the ID.3, unless they are making it here in the states, which I highly doubt.
  - hnarn 7y ago
    > VW has no plans to release the car in the US right now, and it's also unclear whether the company will sell the car in China.
- codeulike 7y ago
  UK checking in here. Cheapest Model 3 in the UK is £38,500 which is about 44,000 euros or $48,000
  - codeulike 7y ago
    (thats including tax, and govt subsidies)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
Darkstryder 7y ago
The pricing is more complicated than that. There is no way to buy a Model 3 at 35K$ in Europe. In France for instance, the minimum price is a whopping 48K€. Source : I wanted to buy a Model 3 in France. - 35K$ is actually 39K$, excluding the off the menu version. You can't buy a Model 3 without Autopilot anymore, even though I don't care about Autopilot. And I'm not even sure you can buy the "off the menu" version of the Model 3 in France. So the base price is 39K$ which is 35.4K€. - You add the Trump tariffs, eg 10%. Model 3 is now 38.9K€. - In France (Europe ?) all prices are after VAT, which are again 20%. Model 3 is now 46.7K€. - Tesla adds a couple grands to the price to move the car overseas. The least expensive price available in France is 48 600 €. - They pre-deduce the French carbon bonus (6K€) so they can say they sell the Model 3 at 42 600 €, which is a lie. In France the median price for new cars is around 27K€. In my opinion there is clearly room for electric vehicles priced between 27K€ (median) and 48.6K€ (Model 3 before carbon bonus). After being very disappointed with the Model 3 French pricing, I'm currently interested in the Nissan Leaf. I will now also follow what Volkswagen is doing with the ID.3.
- Xixi 7y ago
  Pedantic maybe, but the 10% is not the Trump tariff, but the EU tariff. As far as I know it predates Trump's election and various trade wars.
  - Darkstryder 7y ago
    Not pedantic, thank you for this info. I was under the impression this tariff existed because of the trade wars. The bad news is that it is less likely to be removed once Trump is out of office :-(
    - Xixi 7y ago
      US tariffs are 2.5% on cars and 25% on light trucks, while in the EU it is 10% on both. Most vehicles (66% [1]) sold in the US fall under the light-truck category. What Trump has threatened to do is to impose a 25% tariff not only on cars, but maybe more importantly also on auto parts. So far it has not happened. [1] https://www.aei.org/publication/the-anti-consumer-25-chicken-tax-on-imported-trucks-has-insulated-the-big-3-from-foreign-competition-for-50-years/ https://www.aei.org/publication/the-anti-consumer-25-chicken...
turtlebits 7y ago
I feel like everyone overlooks the Chevy Bolt (probably because of all the Tesla hype). At the dealer (w/ bargaining and/or discounts), you can get one for 30k USD. This is before the US federal tax credit, so you'll get some money back.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  Friends comment about his Bolt. It's a car. Thats what I wanted, a car.
  - anchpop 7y ago
    Why buy a Bolt, then? Surely cheaper cars exist that can still take you from point A to point B
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      He wanted an electric car. But not anything more than that.
- AtlasBarfed 7y ago
  US dealer networks are hostile in particular to EVs because they undercut one of their two primary revenue pillars: maintenance. The other pillar is used car sales. I'll never understand why car makers built a sales network fundamentally incented to NOT sell their product.
kwhitefoot 7y ago
Why does everyone always compare with Tesla when Hyundai, Kia, Renault, and Nissan already have cars that are either cheaper than the VW or very similar in price? The Zoe is surely an electric car for the masses and is the best selling electric car in Europe measured over the period 2010 to 2017. And you can get one for about EU 25 000, at least in the UK. See https://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/new-cars/renault/zoe/renault-zoe-hatchback-electric-5-doors-range https://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/new-cars/renault/zoe/renau... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Europe#Top_selling_plug-in_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_E...
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  US-centrism is a part of it. Renault don't sell anything in the US. Nissan America may as well be called Datsun [1] for how well it currently reflects Nissan's fleet in Europe and Asia. The Leaf is Nissan America's ugly stepchild that they barely advertise, were forced to sell by "dad" (Nissan Group), and most Americans probably don't remember exists. Similarly Hyundai and Kia have much different overall US fleets than European ones, and have been slow to bring their EV options to US markets. (Just as VW is targeting 2020 for Europe ID.3 sales, but has made no word of when US sales might start. Or Honda America is entirely ignoring the Honda e.) As far as most of the US is concerned it really is just Tesla to compare with for EV sales. (GM's Bolt maybe the only other footnote to that.) [1] At one point Ghosn even tried to rebrand most of Nissan America's (gas guzzling, oversized) vehicles directly to Datsun in a strategy to make them easier to sell off/kill once EVs actually catch on in the US. No idea if that sort of plan still exists at Nissan Group post-Ghosn.
- sweden 7y ago
  Long story short: Renault Zoe is actually a terrible car. As it was the previous versions of the Nissan Leaf. The reason why they sold quite a few number of cars is because they were the only ones in the market within their price range. Why are they terrible? Mandatory battery rental, low range, expensive when compared to their ICE counterparts and no active cooling of their batteries which made them degrade a lot over a short time. Those electric offerings were just some lazy attempts of expanding their product range to electric and they weren't true attempts to make a good electric product.

zaroth 7y ago

And that’s for a 205mi range (that will be WLTP not EPA so real world will be ~15% lower) on a 45kWh battery back that can only charge at 50kW. Top speed is 99mph, 0-60 is unannounced. The higher priced versions can charge up to 100kW. But frankly, the base model specs seem abysmal?

close04 7y ago
> 0-60 is unannounced Anybody looking for a mid-range Golf/ID.3 type car (excluding top models like GTI/R/etc.) cares very little about 0-100Km/h times. In the same vein they also didn't announce the Nürburgring lap times. Edit. Also based on the numbers Tesla publishes for the same car the difference between WLTP and EPA is less that 7%. Is it expected that in some cases it varies up to 15%?
- zaroth 7y ago
  254 vs 240mi for SR+ but 348 vs 310mi for the LR.
  - close04 7y ago
    Tesla M3 SR+ is advertised as 240mi (386Km) EPA in the US vs. 409Km WLTP in the EU, a 6% difference. The LR is 310mi (~500Km) EPA vs. 560Km WLTP, a 12% difference. Assuming the tests are designed in such a way that for some reason they start to diverge massively the longer the range (6% at 240mi but 12% at 310mi) then for an ID.3 with a 210mi range there is no reason at this point to assume 15% difference but rather under 10%. Given that you obviously know the numbers your extrapolation, while it may turn out to be true, seems more bad faith than reasonable assumption at this point.
    - zaroth 7y ago
      You can’t extrapolate like that. 15% is just a rule of thumb. I had to lookup the numbers to provide the reply, I didn’t know them off hand. Some shorter range cars (e.g. BMW i3) have larger drops (19%). I just found a spreadsheet on Reddit which shows the average for all cars OP could find is a drop of 11.5% https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BvlOf89ebiT0n16ma1V2pA01sZW2tkC4W5xPy-_YNyM/htmlview?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BvlOf89ebiT0n16ma1V2...
reitzensteinm 7y ago
The base model has a higher range per dollar than an SR+ by a comfortable margin. Abysmal seems like a strong word...? It might not be as fast or sexy as a Tesla, but cars like this will be the bread and butter of the EV transition. 30k EUR - 19% VAT = ~$27,750 USD, or $135 per WLTP mile. SR+ is $38,990 with a range of 254, or $153 per WLTP mile.
- zaroth 7y ago
  I think if you’re going to extrapolate a fictional ID.3 by backing out the VAT, the least you could do is compare against an SR- at $35,000 to get $137. Or alternatively the LR at 348mi WLTP range (+12.25%) for $47,990 = $138. Of course range per dollar is a funny metric because it’s like saying it’s the only thing you are paying for.
  - reitzensteinm 7y ago
    Removing the VAT is absolutely the right way to make the comparison. I didn't use EU prices for the Model 3 so as to not penalize it for tariffs and shipping. I honestly can't believe you're pushing back on that. The specs don't match up to a Model 3, but it's a much cheaper car. If they were the same price, I'd understand your distaste.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

I presume that the "under €30,000" price includes the 19% VAT, since IIRC advertised prices are required to include the VAT. The Model 3 SR+ is €44,500 in Germany. Subtract the EV credit and it seems to me that the id.3 will only slightly more than half the price of the Model 3.

Xixi 7y ago

Be careful when comparing EU prices to US prices: EU prices always include sales tax (varies by country, but 20% in France and 19% in Germany), while US prices never include them. Assuming 10% tariffs and 20% sales taxes, that bumps the $35,000 Tesla to $46,200, or about 42,000 EUR. Indeed the cheapest Model 3 that I could find in France costs 42,600 EUR. If the Volkswagen ID.3 comes in somewhere between 26,000 EUR and 30,000 EUR, it will indeed be quite a bit cheaper.

bearjaws 7y ago
America is going to charge 20% to import the ID.3, unless they are making it here in the states, which I highly doubt.
- hnarn 7y ago
  > VW has no plans to release the car in the US right now, and it's also unclear whether the company will sell the car in China.
codeulike 7y ago
UK checking in here. Cheapest Model 3 in the UK is £38,500 which is about 44,000 euros or $48,000
- codeulike 7y ago
  (thats including tax, and govt subsidies)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

Darkstryder 7y ago

The pricing is more complicated than that. There is no way to buy a Model 3 at 35K$ in Europe. In France for instance, the minimum price is a whopping 48K€. Source : I wanted to buy a Model 3 in France. - 35K$ is actually 39K$, excluding the off the menu version. You can't buy a Model 3 without Autopilot anymore, even though I don't care about Autopilot. And I'm not even sure you can buy the "off the menu" version of the Model 3 in France. So the base price is 39K$ which is 35.4K€. - You add the Trump tariffs, eg 10%. Model 3 is now 38.9K€. - In France (Europe ?) all prices are after VAT, which are again 20%. Model 3 is now 46.7K€. - Tesla adds a couple grands to the price to move the car overseas. The least expensive price available in France is 48 600 €. - They pre-deduce the French carbon bonus (6K€) so they can say they sell the Model 3 at 42 600 €, which is a lie. In France the median price for new cars is around 27K€. In my opinion there is clearly room for electric vehicles priced between 27K€ (median) and 48.6K€ (Model 3 before carbon bonus). After being very disappointed with the Model 3 French pricing, I'm currently interested in the Nissan Leaf. I will now also follow what Volkswagen is doing with the ID.3.

Xixi 7y ago
Pedantic maybe, but the 10% is not the Trump tariff, but the EU tariff. As far as I know it predates Trump's election and various trade wars.
- Darkstryder 7y ago
  Not pedantic, thank you for this info. I was under the impression this tariff existed because of the trade wars. The bad news is that it is less likely to be removed once Trump is out of office :-(
  - Xixi 7y ago
    US tariffs are 2.5% on cars and 25% on light trucks, while in the EU it is 10% on both. Most vehicles (66% [1]) sold in the US fall under the light-truck category. What Trump has threatened to do is to impose a 25% tariff not only on cars, but maybe more importantly also on auto parts. So far it has not happened. [1] https://www.aei.org/publication/the-anti-consumer-25-chicken-tax-on-imported-trucks-has-insulated-the-big-3-from-foreign-competition-for-50-years/ https://www.aei.org/publication/the-anti-consumer-25-chicken...

turtlebits 7y ago

I feel like everyone overlooks the Chevy Bolt (probably because of all the Tesla hype). At the dealer (w/ bargaining and/or discounts), you can get one for 30k USD. This is before the US federal tax credit, so you'll get some money back.

Gibbon1 7y ago
Friends comment about his Bolt. It's a car. Thats what I wanted, a car.
- anchpop 7y ago
  Why buy a Bolt, then? Surely cheaper cars exist that can still take you from point A to point B
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    He wanted an electric car. But not anything more than that.
AtlasBarfed 7y ago
US dealer networks are hostile in particular to EVs because they undercut one of their two primary revenue pillars: maintenance. The other pillar is used car sales. I'll never understand why car makers built a sales network fundamentally incented to NOT sell their product.

kwhitefoot 7y ago

Why does everyone always compare with Tesla when Hyundai, Kia, Renault, and Nissan already have cars that are either cheaper than the VW or very similar in price? The Zoe is surely an electric car for the masses and is the best selling electric car in Europe measured over the period 2010 to 2017. And you can get one for about EU 25 000, at least in the UK. See https://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/new-cars/renault/zoe/renault-zoe-hatchback-electric-5-doors-range https://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/new-cars/renault/zoe/renau... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Europe#Top_selling_plug-in_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_E...

WorldMaker 7y ago
US-centrism is a part of it. Renault don't sell anything in the US. Nissan America may as well be called Datsun [1] for how well it currently reflects Nissan's fleet in Europe and Asia. The Leaf is Nissan America's ugly stepchild that they barely advertise, were forced to sell by "dad" (Nissan Group), and most Americans probably don't remember exists. Similarly Hyundai and Kia have much different overall US fleets than European ones, and have been slow to bring their EV options to US markets. (Just as VW is targeting 2020 for Europe ID.3 sales, but has made no word of when US sales might start. Or Honda America is entirely ignoring the Honda e.) As far as most of the US is concerned it really is just Tesla to compare with for EV sales. (GM's Bolt maybe the only other footnote to that.) [1] At one point Ghosn even tried to rebrand most of Nissan America's (gas guzzling, oversized) vehicles directly to Datsun in a strategy to make them easier to sell off/kill once EVs actually catch on in the US. No idea if that sort of plan still exists at Nissan Group post-Ghosn.
sweden 7y ago
Long story short: Renault Zoe is actually a terrible car. As it was the previous versions of the Nissan Leaf. The reason why they sold quite a few number of cars is because they were the only ones in the market within their price range. Why are they terrible? Mandatory battery rental, low range, expensive when compared to their ICE counterparts and no active cooling of their batteries which made them degrade a lot over a short time. Those electric offerings were just some lazy attempts of expanding their product range to electric and they weren't true attempts to make a good electric product.