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That doesn't surprise me at all. I actively try to avoid echo chambers so I go out of my way to find forums and communities of people with very different opinio

by simias 7y ago

That doesn't surprise me at all. I actively try to avoid echo chambers so I go out of my way to find forums and communities of people with very different opinions. I'll go looking for antivax groups, religious forums, flat-earther blogs and try to see how they view the world. Since I'm fairly left-leaning I also often end up reading far-right content. It's not like it's hard to find on the web these days. I often end up incredibly depressed after doing that though. Flat-earthers are wrong but they're often innocuous. Sure, there are conspiracy theories lurking everywhere but they're not really preaching hate or intolerance usually. You have a minority of extremists and then plenty of people who just don't know any better but don't seem to be bad people on their own. The far right stuff is different. It's just dripping with hate and lack of empathy. It's almost always about putting other people down to feel better about themselves. Empathy is weakness, moderation is treachery, the opposition are "degenerates" and "Non Player Characters" who are depersonalized and considered sub-human. The most vile acts will be brushed away if it serves their objectives. It's not people who "don't know any better", it's people who want to feed on hate. It's frankly terrifying to me. And before somebody tries to tell me that the far-left is as bad, I really don't think it is, or at least not nearly at the same scale. I've seen hate speech and calls for violence on communist forums for instance, and of course the atrocities committed by socialist and communist regimes are often downplayed, but it's not nearly at the same scale or with the same violence in my experience.

krapp 7y ago
>And before somebody tries to tell me that the far-left is as bad, I really don't think it is, or at least not nearly at the same scale. It isn't politically correct on HN to imply that there is any difference between the extremism of left-wing versus right-wing politics, unless it's to argue that the left is even worse.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > unless it's to argue that the left is even worse. That's highly debatable, at best.
ThomPete 7y ago
People who grew up in the soviet union might disagree with your self image.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  >> People who grew up in the soviet union might disagree with your self image. What is it you mean by that? I do not necessarily disagree with you, I am not sure I understand the direction you're taking.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    That claiming that left-leaning somehow is less draconian or violent seems in contradiction with left-leaning ideologies applied to reality.
- psychometry 7y ago
  The Soviet Union was a rigidly authoritarian regime. We're not really talking about economics here.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    What else does parent mean by left leaning then?
mieseratte 7y ago
> The far right stuff is different. It's just dripping with hate and lack of empathy. One could say the exact same thing about left-leaning arguments. I frequently see use of population-level trends and statistics to bulldoze over individual experience and variance, which to me screams "hate and lack of empathy." The person fielding that argument doesn't see the humanity in the other, they're just a number. As far as I'm concerned, that's a human problem. Not an any one side of the political spectrum problem.
- krapp 7y ago
  >One could say the exact same thing about left-leaning arguments. I frequently see use of population-level trends and statistics to bulldoze over individual experience and variance, which to me screams "hate and lack of empathy." You could have said that leftists lack empathy for the rich, or white men, or picked any number of common arguments (often spurious) used to discredit the morality of leftist ideology. Mention Mao and Stalin and mass graves - that's a common tactic. But the use of statistical analysis being exactly as hateful as the racist and anti-semitic dialogue of the extreme right because analyzing trends among populations requires counting people in aggregate? I mean... that's not even wrong. Also, I'm pretty sure the extreme right employs the same tactics when trying to argue the inherent differences in IQ between races and genders, or the predisposition of black people towards criminality and violence, or the inherent dangers of multiculturalism or ethnic mixing. I doubt they consider the experience of every individual Muslim before trying to convince people that Islam is a violent religion that cannot coexist with Western democratic values. So the false equivalence you're trying to draw here just makes the right look even worse. Both sides use statistical analysis to try to prove their point, but only one side is also shooting up synagogues and black churches.
JackFr 7y ago
If you really want to avoid the echo chamber, you might find some thoughtful, center-right reading. You might not know it but there’s a long tradition of intellectual conservatism that despairs of the alt-right fringe as much as you do.
Enginerrrd 7y ago
I have a unique line of work that exposes me to both sides of the extremes pretty frequently, and personally I have a rather apolitical neutral outlook. From my perspective, the amount of dehumanizing rhetoric from both sides scares the shit out of me. Anecdotally, I'd say that the extremity of the deeply alt right is indeed worse in their fixation on hatred, but I'd also say that there's a greater fraction on the far-to-moderate left routinely spewing dehumanizing rhetoric about anyone with even remotely right leaning views. On balance, it's hard for me to say one side is superior, except that the extremes are obviously bad. There's some very real concern among conflict professionals that cut their teeth in places like Bosnia in the 90's about America today, and frankly, I understand the fears there.

by simias 7y ago

krapp 7y ago

>And before somebody tries to tell me that the far-left is as bad, I really don't think it is, or at least not nearly at the same scale. It isn't politically correct on HN to imply that there is any difference between the extremism of left-wing versus right-wing politics, unless it's to argue that the left is even worse.

mieseratte 7y ago
> unless it's to argue that the left is even worse. That's highly debatable, at best.

ThomPete 7y ago

People who grew up in the soviet union might disagree with your self image.

heavenlyblue 7y ago
>> People who grew up in the soviet union might disagree with your self image. What is it you mean by that? I do not necessarily disagree with you, I am not sure I understand the direction you're taking.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  That claiming that left-leaning somehow is less draconian or violent seems in contradiction with left-leaning ideologies applied to reality.
psychometry 7y ago
The Soviet Union was a rigidly authoritarian regime. We're not really talking about economics here.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  What else does parent mean by left leaning then?

mieseratte 7y ago

> The far right stuff is different. It's just dripping with hate and lack of empathy. One could say the exact same thing about left-leaning arguments. I frequently see use of population-level trends and statistics to bulldoze over individual experience and variance, which to me screams "hate and lack of empathy." The person fielding that argument doesn't see the humanity in the other, they're just a number. As far as I'm concerned, that's a human problem. Not an any one side of the political spectrum problem.

krapp 7y ago
>One could say the exact same thing about left-leaning arguments. I frequently see use of population-level trends and statistics to bulldoze over individual experience and variance, which to me screams "hate and lack of empathy." You could have said that leftists lack empathy for the rich, or white men, or picked any number of common arguments (often spurious) used to discredit the morality of leftist ideology. Mention Mao and Stalin and mass graves - that's a common tactic. But the use of statistical analysis being exactly as hateful as the racist and anti-semitic dialogue of the extreme right because analyzing trends among populations requires counting people in aggregate? I mean... that's not even wrong. Also, I'm pretty sure the extreme right employs the same tactics when trying to argue the inherent differences in IQ between races and genders, or the predisposition of black people towards criminality and violence, or the inherent dangers of multiculturalism or ethnic mixing. I doubt they consider the experience of every individual Muslim before trying to convince people that Islam is a violent religion that cannot coexist with Western democratic values. So the false equivalence you're trying to draw here just makes the right look even worse. Both sides use statistical analysis to try to prove their point, but only one side is also shooting up synagogues and black churches.

JackFr 7y ago

If you really want to avoid the echo chamber, you might find some thoughtful, center-right reading. You might not know it but there’s a long tradition of intellectual conservatism that despairs of the alt-right fringe as much as you do.

Enginerrrd 7y ago

I have a unique line of work that exposes me to both sides of the extremes pretty frequently, and personally I have a rather apolitical neutral outlook. From my perspective, the amount of dehumanizing rhetoric from both sides scares the shit out of me. Anecdotally, I'd say that the extremity of the deeply alt right is indeed worse in their fixation on hatred, but I'd also say that there's a greater fraction on the far-to-moderate left routinely spewing dehumanizing rhetoric about anyone with even remotely right leaning views. On balance, it's hard for me to say one side is superior, except that the extremes are obviously bad. There's some very real concern among conflict professionals that cut their teeth in places like Bosnia in the 90's about America today, and frankly, I understand the fears there.