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Cooperating or not, by being in Russia, he's helping Russia, which is why Russia has agreed to put him up. I think that -- had he faced the music -- he'd be ou

Cooperating or not, by being in Russia, he's helping Russia, which is why Russia has agreed to put him up. I think that -- had he faced the music -- he'd be out of jail by now and considered a hero by most Americans. I don't blame him for avoiding imprisonment (I doubt I'd have done differently) but I do think he made the wrong choice. There's a reason the stories of Socrates and Jesus have endured. Please note: I'm not saying that he deserved punishment. I'm saying that submitting himself before unjust punishment would have been the correct choice with respect to achieving his stated goals.

mLuby 7y ago
Why do you think he'd be out right now? Manning got 35 years, was only out due to a pardon, and is right back in again. Also consider that he's been able to advocate for privacy for years now, something he couldn't (easily) do from a cell.
- leftyted 7y ago
  I think there's a reasonable chance Snowden would have been pardoned. Also consider Daniel Ellsberg who leaked the Pentagon Papers. Ellsberg made himself available for prosecution, saying: > I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision That's powerful stuff. Ellsberg was indicted but the judge declared a mistrial (due to prosecutorial misconduct). I think it's quite possible something similar would have happened with Snowden. > Also consider that he's been able to advocate for privacy for years now, something he couldn't (easily) do from a cell. I don't think Snowden has been an especially effective advocate for privacy among Americans, who remain skeptical of him. He's far more popular among Europeans. Anyway, my argument is that he would have been more effective had he not fled. Snowden today also faces the paradox of public virtuousness, wherin goodness exposed in public is necessarily corrupted because it become self-serving. Allowing himself to be jailed would have mitigated that.
notafraudster 7y ago
What's the argument to support the claim he'd have served a 5 year jail sentence only? Reality Winner, who leaked far fewer documents in a far less damaging way several years after Snowden's leak and who had not become a real political football, got 5 years in a plea bargain. Chelsea Manning got 35 years commuted to 7. We know Obama wouldn't have commuted Snowden -- and at any rate the Obama pardon of Manning seemed as much about the human rights issue of a transgender woman in military prison receiving fairly poor treatment -- but even if we assume Snowden would have gotten commuted at 7 years he'd still be in jail. Ending a claim that starts with "He'd be out of jail by now" with "He'd have a better reputation if like these other two guys he let himself get executed" also makes it a little hard to reconcile.
- leftyted 7y ago
  > We know Obama wouldn't have commuted Snowden -- and at any rate the Obama pardon of Manning seemed as much about the human rights issue of a transgender woman in military prison receiving fairly poor treatment -- but even if we assume Snowden would have gotten commuted at 7 years he'd still be in jail. We don't know that. If Snowden had handled his situation differently from day one, he very well could have been pardoned. It all hinges on the American public's perception of him, which is today largely negative (HN is an outlier). My sense is that Americans would have approved of his actions had he made his case in a court room. But we're both just speculating about events that didn't happen. > Ending a claim that starts with "He'd be out of jail by now" with "He'd have a better reputation if like these other two guys he let himself get executed" also makes it a little hard to reconcile. I made two separate claims. The first is that I think there's a reasonable chance he'd have been pardoned or avoided significant jail time had he not fled. But the second doesn't depend on the first. Even if he hadn't been pardoned, Snowden would be a more effective symbol of the misuse of state power from an American jail than he is today in Russia. I understand that's quite a sacrifice and, like I said, I don't "blame him" for fleeing. I'm just stating my opinion that he'd have been a more effective advocate had he not fled. Ghandi, Mandella, King, Suu Kyi all did time. There's a reason Letter from Birmingham Jail is so powerful.
  - tekkk 7y ago
viraptor 7y ago
> he'd be out of jail by now What are you basing that on? There have been no comparable cases that I know of. On the other hand, from known hacking punishments, Kevin Mitnick served 5 years - I doubt Snowden would get any less. Manning got way more as mentioned in another comment.
skellera 7y ago
Like the other comment, I don’t think that the US gov would set a precedent that you could publicly release many of their top secret programs and only go away for less than 6 years. And that’s also with any public outcry. He’d still be locked up. Otherwise, you’d have a string of other “heroes” leaking everything they could.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > I don’t think that the US gov would set a precedent that you could publicly release many of their top secret programs and only go away for less than 6 years. Pvt. Manning was pardoned, so is it unreasonable to think that then-President Obama could have pardoned him?
  - ptaffs 7y ago
    commuted, and not pardoned. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/17/528731790/after-serving-7-years-of-a-35-year-sentence-chelsea-manning-to-walk-free https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/17/528731790...
- avmich 7y ago
  > I don’t think that the US gov would set a precedent that you could publicly release many of their top secret programs and only go away for less than 6 years. If US would continue its violations of the law, those cases would possibly continue, and with public support, and in cases when "hero", "traitor", "whistleblower" is caught, US would be seen bad. US intelligence services should stop violating the law.
catacombs 7y ago
> Cooperating or not, by being in Russia, he's helping Russia, which is why Russia has agreed to put him up. How is he helping Russia?
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  It's a great narrative for them: giving compassionate sanctuary to a heroic whistleblower being persecuted by the evil, imperialist US.
  - martin_a 7y ago
    Well, if you can't expect sanctuary in your home country or any of its allies, where else should you go? In the end, the enemy of your enemy really might be a friend or at least the least bad choice after all.
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      I'm not saying anything against Snowden. He did what he had to do, and Russia wasn't his first choice. But it does, unfortunately, hurt his message.
      - martin_a 7y ago
        Yeah, I think I get what you mean. I'd love if some European state would have provided him with asylum, but I doubt he would be as safe here as he is in Russia. Sadly.
sneak 7y ago
> I think that -- had he faced the music -- he'd be out of jail by now and considered a hero by most Americans. This is an insanely naive viewpoint, considering that the POTUS declared Manning guilty prior to her trial, and then she was tortured so extensively during the process that she tried to commit suicide. Tortured to death is not quite the same as being released early and treated as a hero.
kgarten 7y ago
It was not his choice to be in Russia in the first place. The US government revoked his passport (which should not be possible in the first place). Given that happened, you probably should think about your analysis of the situation :)
gimmeThaBeet 7y ago
I don't know about that, martyrdom aside I'd personally rather not be in prison in most cases. It's tricky to know how the government officials really feel, Eric Holder seems to have superficially softened his stance. No matter how much they now extol the public value of what Snowden did, when you get down to brass tacks, they won't compromise about him needing to serve time. I don't know if that's ever going to go away.
avmich 7y ago
He's definitely helping Russia, and in this case it's wholly because US insists on being wrong - not just wrong, but easily showed wrong.
fluffything 7y ago
> Cooperating or not, by being in Russia, he's helping Russia, which is why Russia has agreed to put him up. The question isn't whether he cooperated with or helped Russia. The question is whether he had a choice. Given that the guy has been asking the DOJ for a fair trial for the last 5 years so that he is able to come back home, I don't think he had a choice. If he did not have a choice, Snowden is not helping Russia by being there, the US is helping Russia by forcing Snowden to be there. So I don't think this hurts Snowden message. Somebody somewhere made the call that it would be more valuable for the US interests to send a strong message against leaks than what they would loose if Snowden were to leak everything they knew to Russia. Independently of that call was good or bad, it wasn't Snowden's call.

mLuby 7y ago

Why do you think he'd be out right now? Manning got 35 years, was only out due to a pardon, and is right back in again. Also consider that he's been able to advocate for privacy for years now, something he couldn't (easily) do from a cell.

leftyted 7y ago
I think there's a reasonable chance Snowden would have been pardoned. Also consider Daniel Ellsberg who leaked the Pentagon Papers. Ellsberg made himself available for prosecution, saying: > I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision That's powerful stuff. Ellsberg was indicted but the judge declared a mistrial (due to prosecutorial misconduct). I think it's quite possible something similar would have happened with Snowden. > Also consider that he's been able to advocate for privacy for years now, something he couldn't (easily) do from a cell. I don't think Snowden has been an especially effective advocate for privacy among Americans, who remain skeptical of him. He's far more popular among Europeans. Anyway, my argument is that he would have been more effective had he not fled. Snowden today also faces the paradox of public virtuousness, wherin goodness exposed in public is necessarily corrupted because it become self-serving. Allowing himself to be jailed would have mitigated that.

notafraudster 7y ago

What's the argument to support the claim he'd have served a 5 year jail sentence only? Reality Winner, who leaked far fewer documents in a far less damaging way several years after Snowden's leak and who had not become a real political football, got 5 years in a plea bargain. Chelsea Manning got 35 years commuted to 7. We know Obama wouldn't have commuted Snowden -- and at any rate the Obama pardon of Manning seemed as much about the human rights issue of a transgender woman in military prison receiving fairly poor treatment -- but even if we assume Snowden would have gotten commuted at 7 years he'd still be in jail. Ending a claim that starts with "He'd be out of jail by now" with "He'd have a better reputation if like these other two guys he let himself get executed" also makes it a little hard to reconcile.

leftyted 7y ago
> We know Obama wouldn't have commuted Snowden -- and at any rate the Obama pardon of Manning seemed as much about the human rights issue of a transgender woman in military prison receiving fairly poor treatment -- but even if we assume Snowden would have gotten commuted at 7 years he'd still be in jail. We don't know that. If Snowden had handled his situation differently from day one, he very well could have been pardoned. It all hinges on the American public's perception of him, which is today largely negative (HN is an outlier). My sense is that Americans would have approved of his actions had he made his case in a court room. But we're both just speculating about events that didn't happen. > Ending a claim that starts with "He'd be out of jail by now" with "He'd have a better reputation if like these other two guys he let himself get executed" also makes it a little hard to reconcile. I made two separate claims. The first is that I think there's a reasonable chance he'd have been pardoned or avoided significant jail time had he not fled. But the second doesn't depend on the first. Even if he hadn't been pardoned, Snowden would be a more effective symbol of the misuse of state power from an American jail than he is today in Russia. I understand that's quite a sacrifice and, like I said, I don't "blame him" for fleeing. I'm just stating my opinion that he'd have been a more effective advocate had he not fled. Ghandi, Mandella, King, Suu Kyi all did time. There's a reason Letter from Birmingham Jail is so powerful.
- tekkk 7y ago

viraptor 7y ago

> he'd be out of jail by now What are you basing that on? There have been no comparable cases that I know of. On the other hand, from known hacking punishments, Kevin Mitnick served 5 years - I doubt Snowden would get any less. Manning got way more as mentioned in another comment.

skellera 7y ago

Like the other comment, I don’t think that the US gov would set a precedent that you could publicly release many of their top secret programs and only go away for less than 6 years. And that’s also with any public outcry. He’d still be locked up. Otherwise, you’d have a string of other “heroes” leaking everything they could.

mieseratte 7y ago
> I don’t think that the US gov would set a precedent that you could publicly release many of their top secret programs and only go away for less than 6 years. Pvt. Manning was pardoned, so is it unreasonable to think that then-President Obama could have pardoned him?
- ptaffs 7y ago
  commuted, and not pardoned. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/17/528731790/after-serving-7-years-of-a-35-year-sentence-chelsea-manning-to-walk-free https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/17/528731790...
avmich 7y ago
> I don’t think that the US gov would set a precedent that you could publicly release many of their top secret programs and only go away for less than 6 years. If US would continue its violations of the law, those cases would possibly continue, and with public support, and in cases when "hero", "traitor", "whistleblower" is caught, US would be seen bad. US intelligence services should stop violating the law.

catacombs 7y ago

> Cooperating or not, by being in Russia, he's helping Russia, which is why Russia has agreed to put him up. How is he helping Russia?

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
It's a great narrative for them: giving compassionate sanctuary to a heroic whistleblower being persecuted by the evil, imperialist US.
- martin_a 7y ago
  Well, if you can't expect sanctuary in your home country or any of its allies, where else should you go? In the end, the enemy of your enemy really might be a friend or at least the least bad choice after all.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    I'm not saying anything against Snowden. He did what he had to do, and Russia wasn't his first choice. But it does, unfortunately, hurt his message.
    - martin_a 7y ago
      Yeah, I think I get what you mean. I'd love if some European state would have provided him with asylum, but I doubt he would be as safe here as he is in Russia. Sadly.

sneak 7y ago

> I think that -- had he faced the music -- he'd be out of jail by now and considered a hero by most Americans. This is an insanely naive viewpoint, considering that the POTUS declared Manning guilty prior to her trial, and then she was tortured so extensively during the process that she tried to commit suicide. Tortured to death is not quite the same as being released early and treated as a hero.

kgarten 7y ago

It was not his choice to be in Russia in the first place. The US government revoked his passport (which should not be possible in the first place). Given that happened, you probably should think about your analysis of the situation :)

gimmeThaBeet 7y ago

I don't know about that, martyrdom aside I'd personally rather not be in prison in most cases. It's tricky to know how the government officials really feel, Eric Holder seems to have superficially softened his stance. No matter how much they now extol the public value of what Snowden did, when you get down to brass tacks, they won't compromise about him needing to serve time. I don't know if that's ever going to go away.

avmich 7y ago

He's definitely helping Russia, and in this case it's wholly because US insists on being wrong - not just wrong, but easily showed wrong.

fluffything 7y ago

> Cooperating or not, by being in Russia, he's helping Russia, which is why Russia has agreed to put him up. The question isn't whether he cooperated with or helped Russia. The question is whether he had a choice. Given that the guy has been asking the DOJ for a fair trial for the last 5 years so that he is able to come back home, I don't think he had a choice. If he did not have a choice, Snowden is not helping Russia by being there, the US is helping Russia by forcing Snowden to be there. So I don't think this hurts Snowden message. Somebody somewhere made the call that it would be more valuable for the US interests to send a strong message against leaks than what they would loose if Snowden were to leak everything they knew to Russia. Independently of that call was good or bad, it wasn't Snowden's call.