4 ms·

Well you know what would have made him at lot less likely to cooperate with Russians, if he didn't fear persecution for whistle blowing and never went to Russia

by ses1984 7y ago

Well you know what would have made him at lot less likely to cooperate with Russians, if he didn't fear persecution for whistle blowing and never went to Russia.

vntok 7y ago
Your statement is orthogonal to the original point, which is whether we should trust him with his denial or not.
- ses1984 7y ago
  I guess it's hard to disagree with this statement, but it doesn't really affect how I feel about the whole thing.
dragontamer 7y ago
To be fair to Snowden, he ran to China / Hong Kong first. (Although China is also quite authoritarian and probably doesn't care about free speech rights). I'm fairly convinced (through a tin-foil hat sort of way) that Russia did something to steer Snowden into Russia. Hypothetically: Snowden's flight plan was rerouted into Russia after Snowden fled Hong Kong (when Hong Kong announced it was going to cooperate and extradite Snowden). Snowden's ideal target to run to was Ecuador (who at the time, was hosting Julian Assange). The difficulty was routing a flight plan from Hong Kong to Ecuador without touching a US-controlled location. They routed the flight plan through Russia and... well... Russia probably wanted him. So Russia kept him.
- ses1984 7y ago
  Personally I think being fair to Snowden would be to give him a pardon and bring him home, a long time ago.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    The fairest thing possible is for him to speak his defense in court, to a fair and impartial jury. And for the jury to decide. You shouldn't be "pardoned" of a crime that you haven't been put on trial for yet. ------------ BTW: What do you feel about some other presidential pardons? Do you think it was fair for Joe Arpaio to be pardoned even after the courts found him guilty of a crime? There's nothing "fair" about pardons. A pardon is a way for the President to value-signal that certain crimes were worth it. In the case of Joe Arpaio, Trump reinforces his values. Court is about being fair: Jury decides based on the evidence. And the court stays in session until the Jury is unanimous. Given how the current President has used the pardoning system, I'm not exactly confident in it anymore.
    - ses1984 7y ago
      Comparing Snowden to Arpaio, ok.
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        I'm comparing the use of pardons. I don't intend to compare the men themselves. The fact of the matter is: Arpaio demonstrates that some pardons can be "unfair". I don't think you can expect to get a system of "fairness" when pardons are in play. In contrast, I still personally have great confidence in the jury system.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        I think the point isn't that pardons are fair, but that pardons can be used to make unfair court verdicts fair (ie acquit someone who was deemed to be guilty but the people feel is not).

Well you know what would have made him at lot less likely to cooperate with Russians, if he didn't fear persecution for whistle blowing and never went to Russia.

vntok 7y ago

Your statement is orthogonal to the original point, which is whether we should trust him with his denial or not.

ses1984 7y ago
I guess it's hard to disagree with this statement, but it doesn't really affect how I feel about the whole thing.

dragontamer 7y ago

To be fair to Snowden, he ran to China / Hong Kong first. (Although China is also quite authoritarian and probably doesn't care about free speech rights). I'm fairly convinced (through a tin-foil hat sort of way) that Russia did something to steer Snowden into Russia. Hypothetically: Snowden's flight plan was rerouted into Russia after Snowden fled Hong Kong (when Hong Kong announced it was going to cooperate and extradite Snowden). Snowden's ideal target to run to was Ecuador (who at the time, was hosting Julian Assange). The difficulty was routing a flight plan from Hong Kong to Ecuador without touching a US-controlled location. They routed the flight plan through Russia and... well... Russia probably wanted him. So Russia kept him.

ses1984 7y ago
Personally I think being fair to Snowden would be to give him a pardon and bring him home, a long time ago.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  The fairest thing possible is for him to speak his defense in court, to a fair and impartial jury. And for the jury to decide. You shouldn't be "pardoned" of a crime that you haven't been put on trial for yet. ------------ BTW: What do you feel about some other presidential pardons? Do you think it was fair for Joe Arpaio to be pardoned even after the courts found him guilty of a crime? There's nothing "fair" about pardons. A pardon is a way for the President to value-signal that certain crimes were worth it. In the case of Joe Arpaio, Trump reinforces his values. Court is about being fair: Jury decides based on the evidence. And the court stays in session until the Jury is unanimous. Given how the current President has used the pardoning system, I'm not exactly confident in it anymore.
  - ses1984 7y ago
    Comparing Snowden to Arpaio, ok.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      I'm comparing the use of pardons. I don't intend to compare the men themselves. The fact of the matter is: Arpaio demonstrates that some pardons can be "unfair". I don't think you can expect to get a system of "fairness" when pardons are in play. In contrast, I still personally have great confidence in the jury system.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        I think the point isn't that pardons are fair, but that pardons can be used to make unfair court verdicts fair (ie acquit someone who was deemed to be guilty but the people feel is not).