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As a Canadian, you're currently detaining Meng Wanzhou, Huawei's ex-CFO, at the USA's behest, for allegedly violating the USA's unilateral Trump-tweet sanctions

by sho 7y ago

As a Canadian, you're currently detaining Meng Wanzhou, Huawei's ex-CFO, at the USA's behest, for allegedly violating the USA's unilateral Trump-tweet sanctions against Iran. The Chinese are furious about it. You can be sure their media is portraying that case with just as much outrage as Mr Bag-full-of-airsoft here. I don't mean to start a round of whataboutism - just to point out that none of this is happening in a vacuum. I do agree that as a Canadian - probably not the best time. Mining minerals is a bit of an exaggeration though. He'll be detained for a couple of weeks, then deported with a 10-year ban. This is countries playing power games, nothing more.

arcticbull 7y ago
No, Canada is a rule-of-law country. Canada is detaining Meng Wanzhou on the suspicion of committing fraud, not because of Iranian sanctions. Violating US sanctions is not a crime in Canada and therefore nobody can be held in Canada for doing so, even at the behest of the US authorities. You can only be extradited from Canada for committing an act that would be a crime both in Canada and in the country requesting extradition. Meng is free to move about Vancouver and is under "house arrest" at her two houses there totaling $16M CAD [1]. If the judge finds there's no reasonable likelihood of her having committed fraud, she will be free to go, end of story. There's also a short, defined clock for them to do so. They've sentenced at least one Canadian to death in retaliation [2] and prevented others from leaving the country indefinitely. Don't make excuses here, don't equivocate, there's no whataboutism to play. One is under legitimate investigation for committing a crime in a jurisdiction that operates autonomously of the body politic and will be free to go if not guilty -- and in the interrim free to move about almost twenty million dollars of property and one of the most livable cities in the world. The other is being executed in retaliation. [1] https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/2177157/surprise-surprise-vancouver-huawei-cfo-sabrina-meng https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-confirms-canadian-death-sentence-apparent-retaliation-huawei-cfo-2019-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-confirms-canadian-deat...
- sho 7y ago
  Wow, did I strike a nerve? I'm not making excuses or equivocating. I'm simply pointing out that this is not some random tantrum on the Chinese side. The USA, and Canada, knew exactly what they were doing when they decided to "make an example of" Ms. Meng, and the Chinese are retaliating by making an example of some westerners - who, by the way, are all charged with crimes as well, unless you are claiming they were framed? Meng's charges are 100% about the Iran sanctions. This "fraud" was allegedly misrepresenting the destination of funds - allegedly to conceal a relationship with a company previously accused of trading with Iran. Meng was explicitly arrested by request from the USA. I invite you to put aside your outrage, step back, and think about how the other side might view things. This "law" that Meng has broken - in her home country - is viewed as an illegitimate attempt by the USA to impose its will on the rest of the world. Illegitimate law, illegitimate investigation - and if you think enforcement of this kind of law isn't arbitrary, think again. The US knew what it was doing, and China's decision to start strictly enforcing one or two of its own laws is the absolutely predictable outcome. One more thing. I'm not "making excuses". I'm no great fan of China and I'd never live there. But I'm tired of the narrative of "my own righteous, virtuous country can do no wrong" vs "the evil, scheming little brainwashed totalitarians". It's simply ignorant to think so. There are a great deal of intelligent, reasonable Chinese, and when they do things, they do them for a reason. Look for those reasons. If all you can come up with is "because they're evil" - go back to the drawing board.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Not at all I'm just saying that you're not fairly representing this. > ...the Chinese are retaliating by making an example of some westerners - who, by the way, are all charged with crimes as well, unless you are claiming they were framed? It's hard to say with the PRC of course, only 1,039 of more than 1.2 million people [brought to trial] were found not guilty in court in the PRC in 2014 (three 9's of conviction rate) [1]. Either they've got some super-sleuths on staff at all the police stations or something's a little funky. > This "fraud" was allegedly misrepresenting the destination of funds - allegedly to conceal a relationship with a company previously accused of trading with Iran. Again, no, they're being charged with fraud. They'd have had to commit fraud to be extradited. Not sanctions avoidance. What the fraud was in connection to is kind of irrelevant. The reason they committed fraud is irrelevant, fraud is fraud. You can't misstate the destination of funds whether you're in America or Canada which is why the case is being made. If they'd written Destination: IRAN we wouldn't be having this conversation. And further, the judge is taking to account the political nature of the situation. Of course why they're looking into it now is political. Hyperbolic example but if they'd ordered someone killed to conceal the destination of funds would you be air quoting "murder"? Probably not. > One more thing. I'm not "making excuses". >> I do agree that as a Canadian - probably not the best time. Mining minerals is a bit of an exaggeration though. He'll be detained for a couple of weeks, then deported with a 10-year ban. My point is you're making a bad-faith argument or at least a false equivalency. You hand-waved this away as though they're going to spend some vacation time on the mainland, but in reality, they could just as face execution. Not for anything they did, but for political reasons. It's not an exaggeration, if anything, it was an understatement of risk. > But I'm tired of the narrative of "my own righteous, virtuous country can do no wrong" vs "the evil, scheming little brainwashed totalitarians". I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm criticizing the false equivalency you made of taking someone through a rule-of-law process and treating them fairly in adjudicating whether a crime was committed, vs. execution in political retaliation. Just because there's a reason they're killing Canadians doesn't mean that it's okay or should be ignored, or that there's no risk. I have a lot of respect for the government of the PRC, but that hardly means I'm fine with this. For the record, I'm by no means a fan of the recent developments with Iran, I think going back on the Iran nuclear deal is a huge blunder. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/12193202/Chinese-courts-convict-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/121932...

by sho 7y ago

arcticbull 7y ago

No, Canada is a rule-of-law country. Canada is detaining Meng Wanzhou on the suspicion of committing fraud, not because of Iranian sanctions. Violating US sanctions is not a crime in Canada and therefore nobody can be held in Canada for doing so, even at the behest of the US authorities. You can only be extradited from Canada for committing an act that would be a crime both in Canada and in the country requesting extradition. Meng is free to move about Vancouver and is under "house arrest" at her two houses there totaling $16M CAD [1]. If the judge finds there's no reasonable likelihood of her having committed fraud, she will be free to go, end of story. There's also a short, defined clock for them to do so. They've sentenced at least one Canadian to death in retaliation [2] and prevented others from leaving the country indefinitely. Don't make excuses here, don't equivocate, there's no whataboutism to play. One is under legitimate investigation for committing a crime in a jurisdiction that operates autonomously of the body politic and will be free to go if not guilty -- and in the interrim free to move about almost twenty million dollars of property and one of the most livable cities in the world. The other is being executed in retaliation. [1] https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/2177157/surprise-surprise-vancouver-huawei-cfo-sabrina-meng https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-confirms-canadian-death-sentence-apparent-retaliation-huawei-cfo-2019-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-confirms-canadian-deat...

sho 7y ago
Wow, did I strike a nerve? I'm not making excuses or equivocating. I'm simply pointing out that this is not some random tantrum on the Chinese side. The USA, and Canada, knew exactly what they were doing when they decided to "make an example of" Ms. Meng, and the Chinese are retaliating by making an example of some westerners - who, by the way, are all charged with crimes as well, unless you are claiming they were framed? Meng's charges are 100% about the Iran sanctions. This "fraud" was allegedly misrepresenting the destination of funds - allegedly to conceal a relationship with a company previously accused of trading with Iran. Meng was explicitly arrested by request from the USA. I invite you to put aside your outrage, step back, and think about how the other side might view things. This "law" that Meng has broken - in her home country - is viewed as an illegitimate attempt by the USA to impose its will on the rest of the world. Illegitimate law, illegitimate investigation - and if you think enforcement of this kind of law isn't arbitrary, think again. The US knew what it was doing, and China's decision to start strictly enforcing one or two of its own laws is the absolutely predictable outcome. One more thing. I'm not "making excuses". I'm no great fan of China and I'd never live there. But I'm tired of the narrative of "my own righteous, virtuous country can do no wrong" vs "the evil, scheming little brainwashed totalitarians". It's simply ignorant to think so. There are a great deal of intelligent, reasonable Chinese, and when they do things, they do them for a reason. Look for those reasons. If all you can come up with is "because they're evil" - go back to the drawing board.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Not at all I'm just saying that you're not fairly representing this. > ...the Chinese are retaliating by making an example of some westerners - who, by the way, are all charged with crimes as well, unless you are claiming they were framed? It's hard to say with the PRC of course, only 1,039 of more than 1.2 million people [brought to trial] were found not guilty in court in the PRC in 2014 (three 9's of conviction rate) [1]. Either they've got some super-sleuths on staff at all the police stations or something's a little funky. > This "fraud" was allegedly misrepresenting the destination of funds - allegedly to conceal a relationship with a company previously accused of trading with Iran. Again, no, they're being charged with fraud. They'd have had to commit fraud to be extradited. Not sanctions avoidance. What the fraud was in connection to is kind of irrelevant. The reason they committed fraud is irrelevant, fraud is fraud. You can't misstate the destination of funds whether you're in America or Canada which is why the case is being made. If they'd written Destination: IRAN we wouldn't be having this conversation. And further, the judge is taking to account the political nature of the situation. Of course why they're looking into it now is political. Hyperbolic example but if they'd ordered someone killed to conceal the destination of funds would you be air quoting "murder"? Probably not. > One more thing. I'm not "making excuses". >> I do agree that as a Canadian - probably not the best time. Mining minerals is a bit of an exaggeration though. He'll be detained for a couple of weeks, then deported with a 10-year ban. My point is you're making a bad-faith argument or at least a false equivalency. You hand-waved this away as though they're going to spend some vacation time on the mainland, but in reality, they could just as face execution. Not for anything they did, but for political reasons. It's not an exaggeration, if anything, it was an understatement of risk. > But I'm tired of the narrative of "my own righteous, virtuous country can do no wrong" vs "the evil, scheming little brainwashed totalitarians". I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm criticizing the false equivalency you made of taking someone through a rule-of-law process and treating them fairly in adjudicating whether a crime was committed, vs. execution in political retaliation. Just because there's a reason they're killing Canadians doesn't mean that it's okay or should be ignored, or that there's no risk. I have a lot of respect for the government of the PRC, but that hardly means I'm fine with this. For the record, I'm by no means a fan of the recent developments with Iran, I think going back on the Iran nuclear deal is a huge blunder. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/12193202/Chinese-courts-convict-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/121932...